MorganExp

Morgan +4 Forum

Morgan Plus 4 Temp Gauge 1958 and sender about 25 ohms

AutoShrine Sponsor
AutoShrine Sponsor
AutoShrine Sponsor

BuyBritish Rob D
Ipswich, Suffolk, UK   GBR
Anyone have any info on the 1958 electrical temp senders and gauge as fitted to the 1958 plus 4 morgans

gauge is approx. 25 ohms at 85 degrees c

needs about 5v to be on normal, which means the temp sender if connected to 12v needs to be about 20 ohms

the gauge heats up a bimetal strip which moves the needle quite an old technique, GOMOG do have a page dedicated to converting the gauge using a Triumph GT6 donor gauge.

Anyone have experience?

Rob

. Hide banner ads & support this website by becoming a > Gold Supporting Member <
kanucka Larry D
MISSION VIEJO, California, USA   USA
Rob, I have a bit of knowledge. Please tell me if the actual temperature gauge starts with an "X" and when the ignition is off does the temperature gauge sit at hot and not cold. If yes then your temp sender is a Smiths TT1200 and is a PTC system and not an NTC temperature system.

Email me at my LDalphyatcoxdotnet and I will send you how the gauge works, etc.

Regards

kanucka Larry D
MISSION VIEJO, California, USA   USA
Rob, if you are electrical in nature here is an equivalent electrical circuit I have drawn for you. Again this is for a "TC" or "X" Smiths gauge and sender combo.

I also have written up a description of how the sender works. It is not a final paper by any means (put it together quickly for you) but rather an explanation of how it works. I did it in Microsoft Word and cant upload to this site so email me and I will send it to you.

Note; I also have a couple of NOS Smiths TT1200 which I located in Holland while on vacation at an old MG repair center. I am not in the business of selling parts however will part with one for the same price I paid if you need one. These are obsolete and like hens teeth to locate.

Regards

. Hide banner ads & support this website by becoming a > Gold Supporting Member <

Attachments:
hilosmiths.jpg    23.3 KB
hilosmiths.jpg

kanucka Larry D
MISSION VIEJO, California, USA   USA
Rob, Here is an explanation I have written up for you. I'll have to send the diagrams and waveforms separately as not being copied over.

IMPORTANT: I MADE A TYPO IN PRIOR POST. IT IS "TE" OR "X", NOT "TC". TC and X are thermal type gauges and TC is a semi conductor gauge,

Smiths TT1200/00, TT1200/01 and TT1200/02 temperature sender repair

Note:

1) The TT1200/00, /01, /02 can all interchange with each other. The TT1800/01 can also be used.
2) The Smiths/Jaeger thermal gauges start with the designation of TE or X.

This is a sampling of the infamous Smiths PTC (Positive Temperature Coefficient) temperature sending unit and can be found on the following cars.

a) Morgan +4, 4/4 TT1200/01 connected to cluster gauge TE6210/01
b) Hillman 54~56, Minx MK VIII, 76207, (TT1200/00) connected to TE4602/00
c) Hillman Deluxe 56~58 I-II, 76207, (TT1200/00) connected to TE6201/00
d) Singer Gazelle MK IIa-III, 76207/1, (TT1200/01)
e) Austin A-35 Saloon, 76207/1, (TT1200/01) connected to TE2500/04
f) MG Magnette ZA B751, 52700 connected to X.80541
g) MG Magnette ZB B751, 52700 connected to cluster gauge TE6204/00
h) Rolls Royce Silver Cloud UD.1554, (TT1200/02) connected to gauge UD.1953, TE6209/00
i) Bentley S1 part number UD.1554 connected to UD.1357 cluster gauge
j) South African GSM Dart or UK Delta part number D1-1006 (TT1200/01)
k) BMC spares 3H2836 (TT1200/01)

Caution advisory. If you use your spouse’s premium aluminum anodized cookware and her brand new digital candy thermometer as the test and calibration platform, be prepared to purchase new items when caught red handed.

How it works;

The sending unit is as shown in Circuit Diagram and can be thought of as a current averaging unit. Both the gauge and the sending unit each have an approximate resistance of 24 Ohms at room temperature.

The sender unit is a thermal design with ~18 inches (39/40 turns) of Nichrome-30 heating wire that upon applying current, bends or deflects the bimetal shaft .

I=V/R shows that if the car voltage is 13.6 V and the resistance of the circuit is 53 Ohms (13.6V/53 Ohms) you have approximately 0.26 Amps or a ¼ Amp. As the sender warms up the points open up and the current goes to zero.

As the sender cools down the points close again. The colder the sender is the more time it spends with the points closed so the coil is heating, meaning there is more heating time on the gauge so it moves the needle to the cold side,

As the temperature rises the bi-metal strip deflects and the contacts open. Current stops flowing through the Nichrome wire causing the bi-metal strip to cool rapidly. Since no current is going through the fine gauge wire windings the contacts close. An oscillation or duty cycle is then established.

This is easily witnessed if you use a DC power supply set to 13.6 volts with a needle ammeter gauge in series and you will see the needle movement at the rate of the oscillation.


Duty cycle is Ton/(Toff + Ton).

Iaverage is the duty cycle x the max current.

INSERT WAVEFORM HERE.

As you can see the duty cycle changes as the temperature changes causing the average current to change. This then causes the gauge to move up or down in temperature accordingly.

The duty cycle goes lower in frequency with an increase in temperature.


The main reason the sending units fail (sample size of 12) was due to high resistance and corrosion build up in the sending units. Failure points were;

A) contact point between the bulb and union nut
cool smiley contact point between the Lucas-type connector (or screw type) and point A.
C) contact point between the metal spring and the inside of the bulb
D) corrosion build up at the point of contact between the screw and the bi-metal strip
E) contact point at the adjustment screw and the metal clip used to set the screw

Please note the electrical path of the sending unit was as follows. From the outside tip of the Lucas connector through the spring contact “A”. Then to the bi-metal strip through the fine gauge wire making contact to the bottom of the adjustment screw. Then through the screw to the spring retaining clip to the transmitting frame to the copper spring clip connecting to the inside of the bulb. Then from the bulb to the union nut, finally through the radiator to ground.

To Test:

a) Check your gauge;

Make sure your gauge is functioning by disconnecting the sending unit and connecting a 22 Ohm 5 W resistor to ground in series with the sender wire. The needle should move from Hot to Cold. DO NOT simply ground to this point without the resistor or you may damage your gauge.
b) Checking the sender;
The most common failure is actually corrosion between the bulb and union point. It can appear they are a single unit when in fact they are 2 separate parts. Carefully separate them and clean both parts thoroughly. I used a standard copper cleaner agent found at any hardware store.
Then measure from the bulb to the tip and you should get an ohm reading of approximately 24 to 26 Ohms. If not continue to next step.
c) The next high resistance or corrosion point was between the spring and the connection point usually because the unit had radiator fluid leak in. Remove the internal sender from the bulb. Carefully bend back and straighten out the folded metal over bulb connection, then separate the units. I used a small pair of side cutters to carefully get under the folds and to straighten them out. I also found that a good pair of my wife’s nails cutters worked well. Again be prepared to buy another pair.
I used fine sand paper to clean both contact points and in a couple of units the spring no longer made contact so you have to gently extend the spring to when you reinsert the unit contact is made. Again a rudimentary check is 25 Ohms from the


Q & A

1) Do I need to use a voltage regulator?
No, a 10V regulator should not be used with a Smiths “thermal” temperature system. The system is a dampened response with the gauge and the sending unit acting in unison therefore a 10V regulated power is of no value and will cause a misreading of the temperature.
2) Do I ever need to adjust the gauge?
Rarely is the gauge requiring adjustment. You can adjust the gauge by removing the plugs and making adjustments. The adjustments are not straight forward and best left to a gauge restoration company. If you must, the adjustments are the original set point and then the other adjustment is the amount of deflection over the temperature range.
3) Are the TT1200/01, TT1200/02 and TT1200/00 interchangeable?
Yes they are.
4) Can a sender show ~25 Ohms yet still not be functional?
Yes. Although in the 12 units I looked at, one unit the points were essentially closed due to contamination and hence showed the correct resistance. In other words the contact points were shorted closed.
5) If the insulated Nichrome heating wire is broken or damaged, can it be replaced?
Yes it can, but best left to a restoration company unless you are very adept at winding the correct length of wire around the bimetal strip and then soldering to the posts.
6) Does it matter on the gauge which post is connected to the sender unit and to the power supply?
No, it does not matter
7) If the sender is installed into a radiator (Morgan design) how important is it to have the radiator well grounded?
Critically important and I recommend a short braid strap or heavy gauge wire connecting the car frame to the radiator. Proper grounding is essential for the system to operate correctly.

If you need anymore info just email me.
Regards

kanucka Larry D
MISSION VIEJO, California, USA   USA
Rob, here is picture of how the gauge and sender function.
Regards


Attachments:
TT1200 circuit diagram.JPG    15.7 KB
TT1200 circuit diagram.JPG

BuyBritish Rob D
Ipswich, Suffolk, UK   GBR
Hi

What a comprehensive write up on the sensors, I do like to try to keep my car having some originality

What fitting is the sensor thread and pitch

You say you have a sensor to buy?

Thank you very much, could I put your details on talk morgan and gomog?

The information is very hard to come by.

Thank You My Morgan friend


Rob Davies

Ipswich
Suffolk
IP2 0QH
United Kingdom



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2016-10-29 02:54 PM by BuyBritish.

kanucka Larry D
MISSION VIEJO, California, USA   USA
Hello Rob, Sure please feel free to post anywhere you want. I would make a minor edit however and that is I stated in the Q&A if you use a voltage regulator you could get inaccurate readings. I need to add that if you use an original Smiths voltage regulator this is possible because the original voltage regulator is also a bi-metal point system. The output voltage is averaged over time, dV/dT. If you use a newer semiconductor regulator then no issue. Wont help, but wont hurt. If you want here is a voltage regulator circuit I use for TC series of gauges, etc. The capacitors are added noise filtering and can be eliminated. Being old school I always add them.

As for selling my NOS Smiths senders, Yes for a fellow Morgan owner I will sell one for the same price I paid. All I ask if I can get the old one in exchange as I have used parts from older units to repair a couple of units for other folks. Just email me at the email address I provided.

Also I have a circuit I did for the Rolls folks to convert an MGB sender (modified Dave Dubois circuit). I can send this if anyone wants it however you have to be a little profecient with a soldering iron.

Regards

. Hide banner ads & support this website by becoming a > Gold Supporting Member <

Attachments:
voltageregulator.jpg    4.4 KB
voltageregulator.jpg

kanucka Larry D
MISSION VIEJO, California, USA   USA
Also if you want to replace an older bi-metal smiths voltage regulator, Caerbont sells a new one as does Moss, etc. If you want to change the circuit above to output 10V or if you want to make your own then simply change the LDO (Low voltage drop out) 12 volt regulator LM2940CT-12 to a 10 volt regulator LM2940CT-10.

Also here is a picture of what the inside of the TT1200 looks like. to determine the type of gauge you can use this little table;

Fuel Gauges with Code Prefix “X” of “FG” … Fuel Gauge Segment
Fuel Gauges with Code Prefix “BF” … Bimetal Segment
Temperature Indicator Code Prefix “X” or “TE” Thermal Segment
Temperature Indicator Code Prefix “TC” … … Semi-Conductor
Temperature Indicator Code Prefix “BT” … … Bimetal Segment


Regards


Attachments:
transmitting frame unit.JPG    23 KB
transmitting frame unit.JPG

BuyBritish Rob D
Ipswich, Suffolk, UK   GBR
Hi Larry

The car that we are bringing back to life is not complete and there is no sender

What is the tread and pitch of an original replacement and at what cost please.

We have a TR4 engine in the Plus 4 and heed to get her running on the road for my 50 th birthday next year.

Any help much appreciated.

We have 3 mogs and one of them has feateured in mog mag this month 'Amazing Grace'

mog mag check out the magazine

we were also at the front of the morgan 4/4 parade at silverstone this year as featured in miscellany

Our 4/4 at silverstone celebrations



Rob & Ali Davies

. Hide banner ads & support this website by becoming a > Gold Supporting Member <
kanucka Larry D
MISSION VIEJO, California, USA   USA
Hello Rob and Ali.

The original sender is 5/8" x 18. In reality the union nut is 5/8" x 18 not the actual sender.

Rob, Do you have the right "X" or "TE" gauge temp gauge? I ask because the thermal system designed by Smiths is really a unique design and not the most accurate temperature gauge setup. I use it in my 66 +4 because I too want it original (Hot when ignition is off) and I don't mind making adjustments to the gauge and even gone to the length of having adjusted the senders to get a more accurate setup. Not an easy adjustment as the tiny set screw is on the transmitting unit frame assembly and not an adjustment I recommend unless you really want to. I have spent hours getting the adjustment to be more reflective of the actual temperature. The original settings are close enough because all you really care is when the engine temp rises quickly.

I have read in multiple threads about the Morgan thermal setup as always indicating hotter meaning always on the hot side of the "N" position of the gauge. This is true and you can see why as Morgan chose to install the sender in the top of the radiator tank. If you are going to get a new radiator made, have them put a second bung 5/8"x18 towards the bottom of the tank and you will get a lower reading for obvious reason. Yes, if your water pump should fail or your rad gets plugged and there is no water circulation then your temperature measurement will not be accurate. There is a reason other engine/car builders locate the sensor in the oil flow of the engine and not the water. But heck, this is why we own Morgans, they are unique.

What others have done is get a TC gauge and swapped the internals. then transplant the Morgan needle. The easiest way is to carefully cut the needle off and then using crazy glue, glue the morgan needle onto the TC gauge needle. Cut the needle on the TC gauge leaving about 3/8" to 1/4" so I have enough to secure the transplanted needle. Be careful though the needle is easily bent. I have swapped out the entire needle assembly but it is a pain to do. If you do this a swap your temperature will show C when the ignition is off. The TC setup is a more accurate temperature system.

My 55 Morgan DHC is the bulb type temperature gauge.

My Minicooper-S and Moke are TC gauge configurations.

If you truly want to go with the Smiths TT1200 setup I will part with one my NOS for the same price I paid. I am keeping them because I am hoping one day to do a Rolls Silver Cloud restoration and will need this sender. Please email me at ldalphyatcoxdotnet as I am not in the business of part selling (I do it for fun) so not wanting to advertise.

Also enjoyed seeing your MOG in the magazine.

Regards, Larry

DuncanCharlton Avatar
DuncanCharlton Duncan Charlton
Elgin, Texas, USA   USA
1931 Morgan 3 Wheeler "Gwenda (Sold)"
1967 Morgan 4/4 "Toly's Car"
1967 Unknown Unknown
1970 Mini Countryman    & more
Larry D. is your man. He helped sort out my gauge. On our 1957 Plus 4 the gauge would not read properly and I discovered that the sending unit was not a match for my gauge, which had probably come from another car. If I remember right, he found me a TC gauge that would work.

I ended up buying a different sending unit which was a close enough match that I could adjust the gauge (I might have bent the needle slightly) to cause it to give the right reading when the motor was in the proper operating range. I don't recall whether I also added a couple of resistors to get it to read in the right range -- that may have been something I was playing around with temporarily when doing the calibration.

The new sending unit would not fit in the same hole in the header tank but I noticed that the thermostat housing had a flat area on the front that looked like it could easily be drilled and tapped, and in that location it would measure temperature of coolant exiting the engine rather than the temperature of the radiator top header tank, which seemed more useful to me, so I removed the housing and installed the new sending unit there. I had to bend the electrical terminal 90 degrees to avoid being hit by the aftermarket plastic cooling fan but that was the only problem with the setup.

Fred Winterburn Avatar
Ripley, Ontario, Canada   CAN
Rob,
Dave Dubois in the USA of the MG Magnette club came up with a solution several years ago that allows one to use a modern sender with the old gauge.http://www.magnette.british-cars.de/tech-tips/maintenance/miscellaneous/516-the-temperature-gauge-problem-solving A fellow in the Canadian Morgan Club used this circuit on his Plus 4 and it worked fine. I have been planning for several years to to make a modification to that circuit so that it will be polarity insensitive (my car is positive ground, but what it is converted to negative ground at some point by a future owner?). I should get on with it and post my results and the circuit. I also plan to use a different sender than Dubois used. I intend to use a sender for an old Datsun, Beck Arnley part#201-0247 or Echlin#TS6010. Those old Datsun senders appear to be very close physically to the old TT1200 sender. Also, I believe that Datsun used a very similar sender in function to the TT1200 sender at one time, but those too are no longer available. The later Datsun sender I intend to use looks right and on my car it fits into the radiator properly(although not hooked up electrically as yet). I will post the results of the polarity insensitive circuit hopefully by end of winter. Thanks to you and Larry for the extra details. I did not have the original gauge so I have an old one from a Hillman that will fit into the gauge cluster. It is also 24 ohms. I also have a Magnette gauge that won't fit into the gauge cluster but it is also 24 ohms, Fred

In reply to # 11307 by BuyBritish Anyone have any info on the 1958 electrical temp senders and gauge as fitted to the 1958 plus 4 morgans

gauge is approx. 25 ohms at 85 degrees c

needs about 5v to be on normal, which means the temp sender if connected to 12v needs to be about 20 ohms

the gauge heats up a bimetal strip which moves the needle quite an old technique, GOMOG do have a page dedicated to converting the gauge using a Triumph GT6 donor gauge.

Anyone have experience?

Rob

Fred Winterburn Avatar
Ripley, Ontario, Canada   CAN
I did a little experimenting today. I've tried a few methods to make the Dave Dubois circuit polarity proof and none have worked well enough. The easiest way is to use both a pnp and npn transistor biased with the same resistors. Unfortunately it isn't that simple as the different biasing for each type rules that out as a simple solution. I also tried biasing the base of a single npn transistor through a wheatstone bridge arrangement and that didn't work for reasons that became obvious as soon as I tried it. A few years ago, I tried using a Datsun sender as one leg of a wheatstone bridge without any transistor amplification. This method worked and was polarity insensitive, but only gave 1/3 of the gauge sweep from cold to hot. However, it did allow the gauge to operate correctly with a negative temperature coefficient sender. The best bet that I can see if one is using the Dubois method, is to make the system work with the polarity of your choice and then add protection for reverse polarity. Also, the Dubois circuit uses a light duty transistor and there is a lot of heat dissipation so a higher wattage transistor that can be heat sunk is a better choice in my opinion. Since Dave has posted his negative ground circuit for the Magnette, I'll post the results of a positive ground system using the Datsun sender here. It will be bench tested only as the car is tucked away for the winter and awkward to work on. I would like to make the device universal polarity, but I'm not going to invest any more time doing so for the limited benefit. A working gauge is the most important part! Fred
Dave Dubois in the USA of the MG Magnette club came up with a solution several years ago that allows one to use a modern sender with the old gauge.http://www.magnette.british-cars.de/tech-tips/maintenance/miscellaneous/516-the-temperature-gauge-problem-solving A fellow in the Canadian Morgan Club used this circuit on his Plus 4 and it worked fine. I have been planning for several years to to make a modification to that circuit so that it will be polarity insensitive (my car is positive ground, but what it is converted to negative ground at some point by a future owner?). I should get on with it and post my results and the circuit. I also plan to use a different sender than Dubois used. I intend to use a sender for an old Datsun, Beck Arnley part#201-0247 or Echlin#TS6010. Those old Datsun senders appear to be very close physically to the old TT1200 sender. Also, I believe that Datsun used a very similar sender in function to the TT1200 sender at one time, but those too are no longer available. The later Datsun sender I intend to use looks right and on my car it fits into the radiator properly(although not hooked up electrically as yet). I will post the results of the polarity insensitive circuit hopefully by end of winter. Thanks to you and Larry for the extra details. I did not have the original gauge so I have an old one from a Hillman that will fit into the gauge cluster. It is also 24 ohms. I also have a Magnette gauge that won't fit into the gauge cluster but it is also 24 ohms, Fred

In reply to # 11307 by BuyBritish Anyone have any info on the 1958 electrical temp senders and gauge as fitted to the 1958 plus 4 morgans

gauge is approx. 25 ohms at 85 degrees c

needs about 5v to be on normal, which means the temp sender if connected to 12v needs to be about 20 ohms

the gauge heats up a bimetal strip which moves the needle quite an old technique, GOMOG do have a page dedicated to converting the gauge using a Triumph GT6 donor gauge.

Anyone have experience?

Rob
[/quote]

Fred Winterburn Avatar
Ripley, Ontario, Canada   CAN
Anyone that is interested,
Ignore my post below. I didn't try hard enough. I have managed a simple circuit based on Dave Dubois' circuit ( see the rough drawing attached) that will work with either polarity and not require a switch if at some point someone converts my car to negative ground. After work this evening I decided to try it again and the process to make a universal polarity positive temperature coefficient sender to a negative coefficient sender isn't really that hard after all. Once I figured out the correct voltage divider to keep the temperature gauge from using too much current (at the cold reading when the current is highest) and burning out the gauge, the other resistance values became more easily deduced. I used transistors I had at hand. It is my belief that the transistor Dave Dubois chose for the MG Magnette is way too light duty. However, the ones I chose to use are extreme at the other end of the scale. (I used a 2N6609 and a 2N3055) There is quite a bit of heat generated from the transistor when the gauge is reading cold, so I would go to the trouble of using a metal case for the enclosure and heat sinking the transistor to it with an insulator. Do this for both in case the polarity is reversed. This experiment was done with resistors chosen to simulate different temperatures, but to be sure I also immersed a sender in a pot of boiling water and let it cool to see the changes. I made boiling just slightly higher than mid scale. The resistor to adjust for this is R4p or R4n in the attached sketch. Fred
In reply to # 11335 by Fred Winterburn I did a little experimenting today. I've tried a few methods to make the Dave Dubois circuit polarity proof and none have worked well enough. The easiest way is to use both a pnp and npn transistor biased with the same resistors. Unfortunately it isn't that simple as the different biasing for each type rules that out as a simple solution. I also tried biasing the base of a single npn transistor through a wheatstone bridge arrangement and that didn't work for reasons that became obvious as soon as I tried it. A few years ago, I tried using a Datsun sender as one leg of a wheatstone bridge without any transistor amplification. This method worked and was polarity insensitive, but only gave 1/3 of the gauge sweep from cold to hot. However, it did allow the gauge to operate correctly with a negative temperature coefficient sender. The best bet that I can see if one is using the Dubois method, is to make the system work with the polarity of your choice and then add protection for reverse polarity. Also, the Dubois circuit uses a light duty transistor and there is a lot of heat dissipation so a higher wattage transistor that can be heat sunk is a better choice in my opinion. Since Dave has posted his negative ground circuit for the Magnette, I'll post the results of a positive ground system using the Datsun sender here. It will be bench tested only as the car is tucked away for the winter and awkward to work on. I would like to make the device universal polarity, but I'm not going to invest any more time doing so for the limited benefit. A working gauge is the most important part! Fred
Dave Dubois in the USA of the MG Magnette club came up with a solution several years ago that allows one to use a modern sender with the old gauge.http://www.magnette.british-cars.de/tech-tips/maintenance/miscellaneous/516-the-temperature-gauge-problem-solving A fellow in the Canadian Morgan Club used this circuit on his Plus 4 and it worked fine. I have been planning for several years to to make a modification to that circuit so that it will be polarity insensitive (my car is positive ground, but what it is converted to negative ground at some point by a future owner?). I should get on with it and post my results and the circuit. I also plan to use a different sender than Dubois used. I intend to use a sender for an old Datsun, Beck Arnley part#201-0247 or Echlin#TS6010. Those old Datsun senders appear to be very close physically to the old TT1200 sender. Also, I believe that Datsun used a very similar sender in function to the TT1200 sender at one time, but those too are no longer available. The later Datsun sender I intend to use looks right and on my car it fits into the radiator properly(although not hooked up electrically as yet). I will post the results of the polarity insensitive circuit hopefully by end of winter. Thanks to you and Larry for the extra details. I did not have the original gauge so I have an old one from a Hillman that will fit into the gauge cluster. It is also 24 ohms. I also have a Magnette gauge that won't fit into the gauge cluster but it is also 24 ohms, Fred

In reply to # 11307 by BuyBritish Anyone have any info on the 1958 electrical temp senders and gauge as fitted to the 1958 plus 4 morgans

gauge is approx. 25 ohms at 85 degrees c

needs about 5v to be on normal, which means the temp sender if connected to 12v needs to be about 20 ohms

the gauge heats up a bimetal strip which moves the needle quite an old technique, GOMOG do have a page dedicated to converting the gauge using a Triumph GT6 donor gauge.

Anyone have experience?

Rob
[/quote]


Attachments:
Morgan temperature gauge Universal polarity circuit.jpg    70 KB
Morgan temperature gauge Universal polarity circuit.jpg

. Hide banner ads & support this website by becoming a > Gold Supporting Member <

To add your reply, or post your own questions

Members Sign In   or   Create an Account

Registration is FREE and takes less than a minute!


Having trouble posting or changing forum settings?
Read the Forum Help (FAQ) or contact the webmaster





Join The Club

Sign in to ask questions, share photos, and access all website features

Your Cars

1962 Morgan Plus 4 4

Text Size

Larger Smaller
Reset Save

Sponsor Links