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1970 4/4 engine serial number location

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bowlman Mark Strang
Williamsburg, VA, USA   USA
Okay, so most of my questions have been answered by my earlier post. Thank you. Now for the most vexing question. Where is the engine serial number for a "691" block? One location per the owners manual say it is "on nearside upper face of block forward of clutch housing prefix A". There is a machined surface there that has only three numbers which are 334. The bonnet flange has the numbers 633 on it which is supposed to be the last digits of the serial number. Another location is said to be under the #1 plug on a flat boss. The boss is there but there are no numbers on it. The car only has 21,000 miles on it and I know the history. It has never had the engine rebuilt which might have involved milling the block for some reason so I assume that this area was never used for the engine number. Other information has indicated that it is near the motor mount on the block. I've checked both sides and there is nothing. Does anyone have a definitive area to search or better yet a photo of where this number can be found? I don't know how many numbers or characters should be in the number but that becomes a moot point if I can't locate the area of the number. The car is a '70 4/4 with the 1600 cc Kent cross flow engine. Something like this should be really basic but I'm struggling. Thanks, Mark

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GoMoG Avatar
GoMoG Lorne G
Cuenca, Azuay, Ecuador   ECU
In reply to # 13680 by bowlman Okay, so most of my questions have been answered by my earlier post. Thank you. Now for the most vexing question. Where is the engine serial number for a "691" block? One location per the owners manual say it is "on nearside upper face of block forward of clutch housing prefix A". There is a machined surface there that has only three numbers which are 334. The bonnet flange has the numbers 633 on it which is supposed to be the last digits of the serial number. Another location is said to be under the #1 plug on a flat boss. The boss is there but there are no numbers on it. The car only has 21,000 miles on it and I know the history. It has never had the engine rebuilt which might have involved milling the block for some reason so I assume that this area was never used for the engine number. Other information has indicated that it is near the motor mount on the block. I've checked both sides and there is nothing. Does anyone have a definitive area to search or better yet a photo of where this number can be found? I don't know how many numbers or characters should be in the number but that becomes a moot point if I can't locate the area of the number. The car is a '70 4/4 with the 1600 cc Kent cross flow engine. Something like this should be really basic but I'm struggling. Thanks, Mark

I am no KENT guru and the holiday week makes time precious and the gomog archives are large. Does the image at the bottom help? And so far, with a quick look, I found this note.

In September 1967, the Mkll Cortina when the engine was redesigned to carry a crossflow head. These early Crossflows were available in 1297 and 1598cc form, known as 1300 and 1600 respectively. The latter carried the casting number of 691M. As we'll see, the head was different to later designs since it's slightly chambered — later ones are flat.

I can find more after the hols. But there are some brilliant gurus around..notably Dave Bean in the USA http://davebean.com/catalog.htm and a whole chorus of people in the UK.


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BlockNumber.jpg

DuncanCharlton Avatar
DuncanCharlton Duncan Charlton
Elgin, TX, USA   USA
1967 Morgan 4/4 "Toly's Car"
1967 Unknown Unknown
1971 Morgan Plus 8 (+8)
The location shown in Lorne's photo is where you'll find the casting number (raised numbers that are literally cast into the side of the block). You're lucky if it's a 711M, which has the upgraded heavier squared-off main bearing caps and wider bore valve lifters. Other casting numbers are 2737E (early) and 751M. A few Ford Fiesta blocks have surely crept in as replacements (motor mounts are likely different on the right side). That's a 771M.

I had a 2337E block in my 4/4 which had the serial number stamped on a flat flange on top of the block on the left side of the engine, about halfway between cylinders 1 & 2, where a section of the top of the block roughly 3" long protrudes laterally from below the head. The same location was used on the holed 711M block I got from a Formula Ford racer, although it had been decked so the original number had been shaved off and was restamped with the engine rebuilder's information. I think some replacement blocks come without a serial number.

Duncan

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bowlman Mark Strang
Williamsburg, VA, USA   USA
Thanks for the info. I have examined the block in the area noted and the engine number is not there. It's a 691m casting and the casting number is in the location of Lorne's photo. The flat horizontal flange on my car is almost directly under the #1 plug hole. There are no numbers there. I'm almost starting to believe that the engine has been rebuilt although here is too much evidence to convince me that it has never been opened. I'm at a loss at this point.The bonnet flange would indicate that the serial number has the numbers "633" in it but I have no other info. I've scraped paint off of all of the areas that I though might contain the numbers assuming that the area that was stamped would have to be flat. No luck to this point. I'm puzzled about the owner's manual indication that it is forward of the clutch housing on the upper side of the block. There appears to be no place that this can be related to. I'm at a loss. It is now becoming a real mystery that I want to solve. It really means nothing in the overall scheme of things other than a personal challenge now. It must be there somewhere. Is there any chance that it is on the front of the block not readily visible? Sort of an odd place to put it but then who knows. I've looked there with no obvious results yet.

DuncanCharlton Avatar
DuncanCharlton Duncan Charlton
Elgin, TX, USA   USA
1967 Morgan 4/4 "Toly's Car"
1967 Unknown Unknown
1971 Morgan Plus 8 (+8)
I'm not finding any info on a 691M but the 681M (not mentioned in the Dave Bean parts book, which is what I consulted before) is an early Crossflow block.

The stamping location your owners manual refers to might refer to the location for a pre-crossflow (such as the 1500 found on Series V 4/4's). I have several of these and there is no machined flange on the top of the block extending out beyond the head, so apparently the serial number is stamped on the front or back (but none of the ones I could get to easily -- they're stacked underneath my shelves -- have numbers visible there).

Since it looks like it wasn't opened up the possibility that seems most likely is that it's a complete service replacement engine.

Duncan

bowlman Mark Strang
Williamsburg, VA, USA   USA
Thanks Duncan. I guess I'll just give up. Something is not right with what I've got. The car runs great and is a pleasure to drive so I'm going to try to not worry about it.

Mark

DuncanCharlton Avatar
DuncanCharlton Duncan Charlton
Elgin, TX, USA   USA
1967 Morgan 4/4 "Toly's Car"
1967 Unknown Unknown
1971 Morgan Plus 8 (+8)
If you just want to know what engine came with it you can ask Gerry Willburn to consult his list, which was copied from the factory records. I'll send you his email address by private message.

Duncan

bowlman Mark Strang
Williamsburg, VA, USA   USA
Great,

I'll look forward to it!

Mark

GoMoG Avatar
GoMoG Lorne G
Cuenca, Azuay, Ecuador   ECU
In reply to # 13687 by bowlman Thanks Duncan. I guess I'll just give up. Something is not right with what I've got. The car runs great and is a pleasure to drive so I'm going to try to not worry about it.

Mark

I wouldn't be that hasty Mark. Gerry or Herman can help with the original build order.

I think you may find that the engine is the original. A bit of research indicated that the 691M ("M" standing for Mexico) was a transition engine between the 681 and the 711M. There were made for a short in period in calendar years 1969 and 1970. Here is some reading you will find of interest. ..I have more if you'd like. Simply use your browsers find-in-this-page and use the trerm 691.

http://www.turbosport.co.uk/showthread.php?t=151197
http://www.cortina-mk1classifieds.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-1283.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Kent_engine
https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/document.asp?DocID=TECH00149

Happy New Year.

Lorne (still a little energized from recent champagne and kisses)

bowlman Mark Strang
Williamsburg, VA, USA   USA
Duncan,
Thanks for the referral to Gerry. He came up with the number and it ties in with the "633" stamped on the bonnet! Thanks again. The mystery still is where it is located on the engine but that becomes a moot point since at least I have the number.

Mark

GoMoG Avatar
GoMoG Lorne G
Cuenca, Azuay, Ecuador   ECU
In reply to # 13687 by bowlman I guess I'll just give up. Something is not right with what I've got. The car runs great and is a pleasure to drive so I'm going to try to not worry about it.
Mark
In reply to # 13690 by GoMoG I wouldn't be that hasty Mark. I think you may find that the engine is the original. A bit of research indicated that the 691M ("M" standing for Mexico) was a transition engine between the 681 and the 711M. There were made for a short in period in calendar years 1969 and 1970.
In reply to # 13696 by bowlman Duncan,
Thanks for the referral to Gerry. He came up with the number and it ties in with the "633" stamped on the bonnet! Thanks again. The mystery still is where it is located on the engine but that becomes a moot point since at least I have the number. Mark

Never say die until the fat lady sings.smileys with beer It didn't make sense that an original engine would coincidentally be replaced with another made at exactly the same time as the car.

gmg



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2019-01-03 05:09 PM by GoMoG.

Daniel Frog Avatar
Daniel Frog Daniel P
AVON, IdF, France   FRA
In reply to # 13685 by bowlman The flat horizontal flange on my car is almost directly under the #1 plug hole. There are no numbers there.

hello Bowlman, hello Ducan, hello Lorn,

My 1970 4/4 also has a 691M engine, and same as Bowlman no number engraved at the place it should be, and no serial number at all!

The number on the bonnet should be the mark of the worker.
My chassis number is B2278, what is your's Bowlman?

Daniel

bowlman Mark Strang
Williamsburg, VA, USA   USA
Daniel,

My chassis number is B2225. We're only 50+cars apart on the 4/4's. My car not only doesn't have the engine number anywhere that I can find but it has no chassis number stamped on the frame. I know the owner and a lot of his friends. The car has never had a new chassis or engine during its life. The car number on the title is what it is and since the digits on the bonnet flange match the engine number's last digits, I am assuming that the chassis is correct. I've gone ahead and stamped the chassis cross member in the proper location with the car number for future reference. I'm sure I won't be the last owner. Apparently there was a worker that just simply didn't stamp the frames with the number. As far as the engine number goes, there are mixed opinions as to where it should be located. I'm going to stamp the block on the flat under the #1 spark plug. At least future owners will be able to identify the engine and tie it to the car. If I'm wrong in the location I guess it won't really matter 'cause most people wouldn't care as long as it had a number they could relate to. Mark

Daniel Frog Avatar
Daniel Frog Daniel P
AVON, IdF, France   FRA
Hello Mark,

Your car should be built in June or July 1970, do you have any marking behind the dash board?
On my 4/4 "D Barnett and 26/9/70" is written. It seems to be the name of the firts owner, but it not a french name and the car was sold by Jacques Savoye and firstly Registered on January the 15th 1971 in France (LHD car).

You are ok, the engine number should be just Under the 2 first spark plugs (red Arrow).
I have a marking on the bonnet "675" and on the bulkhead "76"

Have a good Week-end.

Daniel


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MoodyManitobaMorgan Avatar
Winnipeg, MB, Canada   CAN
I purchased my car in Vancouver Nov. 1970, didn't know it's engine serial # until 2007 when I acquired the factory chassis record.
(4/4 competition roadster B1800, shipped to Canada in January 1969.) moody smiley



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2019-01-14 09:17 PM by MoodyManitobaMorgan.

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