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1962/3 Plus 4 Starting Issues

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Broadcaster Avatar
Broadcaster Silver Member Bob RA
Glendale, CA, USA   USA
I am slowly discovering the idiosyncrasies of my new (old) Morgan

This what is happening
As it is new to our stable I am doing bit at a time and I refrain driving it to the full extend until I make sure all is good
In that process I am driving it on Saturdays only and about 40 miles each Saturday. I carefully log all the things that needs to be attended and I do attend to them as much as my time permits.

I have noticed that this is happening

After a week of standing it takes it takes about 5 to 10 minutes of cranking before it fires (Battery is OK and New) (carburetors SU have the dashpots full) (Tank full of Gas)
Once it starts it runs beautiful. Once it is hot it takes a quarter of a turn and it fires beautifully in fact it gets commented how nice it starts.
Back to the stable and next week is the same saga

I don't want to stress out the starter and don't wish to dismantle the air cleaners on the carbs to spray the throat of the carburetors?

Is it possible that the fuel over time goes back away from carbs and the cranking is needed to bring fuel to the carbs?

If so can I put a non return valve in line? or is it better to put an electric fuel pump there ....I am not so much into originality I like to see her run reliably and regularly

Thanks for your help.

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Fred Winterburn Avatar
Ripley, ON, Canada   CAN
Yes, The float bowls can evaporate dry and some of the fuel in the lines can syphon back so it takes a long time to get fuel up to the bowls. Part of the problem might be a leaky non-return valve in the pump (there are two of them, one for discharge stroke that opens with the suction closed, and one for the intake that closes on the discharge and opens on the suction stroke). Does your pump have a priming lever? I usually give mine several pumps after sitting for a week and it fires right up. Otherwise it can take up to ten seconds to get fuel back into the bowls. It shouldn't take minutes. I'll bet your fuel pump needs a going over and that the valves are leaky. Fred .

In reply to # 13498 by Broadcaster I am slowly discovering the idiosyncrasies of my new (old) Morgan

This what is happening
As it is new to our stable I am doing bit at a time and I refrain driving it to the full extend until I make sure all is good
In that process I am driving it on Saturdays only and about 40 miles each Saturday. I carefully log all the things that needs to be attended and I do attend to them as much as my time permits.

I have noticed that this is happening

After a week of standing it takes it takes about 5 to 10 minutes of cranking before it fires (Battery is OK and New) (carburetors SU have the dashpots full) (Tank full of Gas)
Once it starts it runs beautiful. Once it is hot it takes a quarter of a turn and it fires beautifully in fact it gets commented how nice it starts.
Back to the stable and next week is the same saga

I don't want to stress out the starter and don't wish to dismantle the air cleaners on the carbs to spray the throat of the carburetors?

Is it possible that the fuel over time goes back away from carbs and the cranking is needed to bring fuel to the carbs?

If so can I put a non return valve in line? or is it better to put an electric fuel pump there ....I am not so much into originality I like to see her run reliably and regularly

Thanks for your help.

Broadcaster Avatar
Broadcaster Silver Member Bob RA
Glendale, CA, USA   USA
Thanks Fred
It was stupid of me to post it
Had I read the repair manual in detail which I did not, it clearly says there that after a few days of standing it may be difficult to start the car and the pump needs to be primed
Luckily the pump is an early version and couple of pumps and "there she goes again" as the song says
That said I am still thinking that an electric fuel pump concealed behind the spare tire will be the way to go for me
Thanks for your advice and if you hadn't posted the reply it would have been a long process of finding out the obvious
Thanks Again

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RJSwain Rick Swain
Caledonia, NS, Canada   CAN
Are you sure you're pulling your choke all the way out when trying to start the car? The choke cable has to make a couple of fairly tight turns from the dash to the carbs which can make the pull quite stiff. I have HS6 carbs on my '60 Plus Four and I found it very difficult to start after my rebuild. Then I discovered that after I pulled the choke knob out there was an extra 1/4" or so of travel, if I really came onto the knob. Unless the choke is totally engaged my car just won't start when it's cold. I don't know whether this is typical (it's certainly not the case with the HD6 carbs in my Austin-Healey and other British cars I've owned) so it took me a while to figure out the problem. It might be worth checking. Once started, the choke can be pushed in almost immediately.

Broadcaster Avatar
Broadcaster Silver Member Bob RA
Glendale, CA, USA   USA
Thank you
Choke is fine and works as it should. The problem is resolved pump needed priming that said I will still pursue the electric fuel pump idea
Thank you

38 DHC Mark Braunstein
Vicinity of Orlando, FL, USA   USA
1934 Morgan 3 Wheeler "Moss MOG"
1938 Morgan 4-4 "Uncle Georges Winter Carriage"
1951 Morgan Plus 4 (+4)
1986 Morgan Plus 8 (+8)    & more
Interested to know how it goes. I have a similar problem but have a mechanical pump without the priming lever. I bought a new mechanical pump, one with a priming lever, but haven't installed it yet. Until I install it, I am running my starter.

Cheers,
Mark

Broadcaster Avatar
Broadcaster Silver Member Bob RA
Glendale, CA, USA   USA
OK In the long run electrical fuel pump is the answer. Any time you turn on ignition you will hear clicks which is priming the fuel line. Once clicks stops then you are ready to start and if all being equal it should start no problem.
Bear in mind that if your car is +ve earth you need to take care of that as it can be a bit tricky
Relying on starter is not a good idea for this reason
Starter is designed to just kick start the engine. Continuous turning will heat up the windings and over time will damage the insulation and will create short turn or short circuit in the starter motor. You need to avoid that ASAP. Installing the hand priming pump is a small price to pay against a reconditioned or a new starter. My 2 cents.

GoMoG Avatar
GoMoG Lorne G
Cuenca, Azuay, Ecuador   ECU
In reply to # 13509 by Broadcaster OK In the long run electrical fuel pump is the answer. Any time you turn on ignition you will hear clicks which is priming the fuel line. Once clicks stops then you are ready to start and if all being equal it should start no problem.

There will be no problem in running a electrical pump to supplement the mechanical and avoid this issue. Carb pumps are inexpensive and easy to install. However, remember that electrical pumps, without an inertia switch (a switch which turns them off if the car is impacted) becomes vital. You do NOT want to be an accident and have the hot car and electrical lines fed by an continuing flow of fuel. I been through that (twice) and it is seriously not fun. They cost anywhere from 15$ and up on ebay or amazon.

Place it within easy reaching distance of the driver.

gomog

Broadcaster Avatar
Broadcaster Silver Member Bob RA
Glendale, CA, USA   USA
Bloody good point I never thought of that

If the switch is in the circuit with ignition switch and once the car is turned off the pump would be turned off isn't that enough?

In the past I have had jaguars with electric pumps I was not aware of the inertia switch unless they were built in the pump

Very good point Lorne

tjw tim w
NorCal, USA   USA
Greetings... The advent of the inertia switch came with fuel injection becoming a standard in the automotive world. The electric injection pump will continue to pump as long as the circuit is energized regardless. In fitting aftermarket electric pumps, it became a common to fit an oil pressure switch which would interrupt the circuit should oil pressure drop. You needed to fit a bypass switch to supply fuel to get the car started. Sounds like a good idea to protect the engine should pressure drop but carburetors hold enough fuel to run the engine for a while without a pump and do great mischief to the engine. With the inertia switch, the fuel pump will be inactivated in the event of a significant impact that might stop the engine but not the pump. Yes, you can reach over and shut of the ignition which would shut down the pump but should you be "incapacitated", the pump might continue to run, hence the inertia switch.
Another idea is to fit an electric pump to prime the system. Turn it on when the car sits for a while to bring fuel to the mechanical pump and carburetors and then turn it off and let the mechanical pump do the job. This is the circuit on my 64 Ferrari but the mechanical pump is so lame it is common to just run on the electric pump.
I'm glad Lorne brought this up as I am rewiring the fuel pump circuit on my 59 Turner and will be fitting an inertia switch. The wiring will go from the ignition switch to a switch on the panel allowing you to shut the pump off when you need to have other circuits energized but the engine not running, and then on to an inertia switch and then the pump.

Tim(D.Y.M.)

GoMoG Avatar
GoMoG Lorne G
Cuenca, Azuay, Ecuador   ECU
In reply to # 13513 by Broadcaster Bloody good point I never thought of that. If the switch is in the circuit with ignition switch and once the car is turned off the pump would be turned off isn't that enough? In the past I have had jaguars with electric pumps I was not aware of the inertia switch unless they were built in the pump. Very good point Lorne

Thank you Broadcaster. But I learned the hard way..as have so many others. Yes..the EFI crowd (with their high compression fuel) lead the way. But even after they started installing fuel cutoffs, owners and mechanics would simply bypass the inertia switch or oil pressure feature when they failed (as they often do over time). Then the world took a circuitous route with electrical pumps and carb'ed cars. As these became a common addon, few thought of what happens in a accident and few put in a system to prevent pumping after an accident. Imagine a mild Morgan rear-ender, the fuel hoses become detached or pulled open, and the pump keeps emptying the tank on hot engines, exhaust pipes and brakes! And Morgans made before 1993, normally have their tanks ruptured by the hand brake actuator with anything more than a 5mph accident at the rear or rear sides. http://www.morganownersclub.com.au/Rear%20End%20Collision%20Risk.pdf

It is not in the nature of people to remember to turn the engine off after an impact accident. Normally the car stalls and the electrical fuel pump keeps quietly going about its work.


In reply to # 13514 by tjw Greetings... The advent of the inertia switch came with fuel injection becoming a standard in the automotive world. The electric injection pump will continue to pump as long as the circuit is energized regardless. In fitting aftermarket electric pumps, it became a common to fit an oil pressure switch which would interrupt the circuit should oil pressure drop. You needed to fit a bypass switch to supply fuel to get the car started. Sounds like a good idea to protect the engine should pressure drop but carburetors hold enough fuel to run the engine for a while without a pump and do great mischief to the engine. With the inertia switch, the fuel pump will be inactivated in the event of a significant impact that might stop the engine but not the pump. Yes, you can reach over and shut of the ignition which would shut down the pump but should you be "incapacitated", the pump might continue to run, hence the inertia switch.
Another idea is to fit an electric pump to prime the system. Turn it on when the car sits for a while to bring fuel to the mechanical pump and carburetors and then turn it off and let the mechanical pump do the job. This is the circuit on my 64 Ferrari but the mechanical pump is so lame it is common to just run on the electric pump.
I'm glad Lorne brought this up as I am rewiring the fuel pump circuit on my 59 Turner and will be fitting an inertia switch. The wiring will go from the ignition switch to a switch on the panel allowing you to shut the pump off when you need to have other circuits energized but the engine not running, and then on to an inertia switch and then the pump. Tim(D.Y.M.)

Well said Tim. There are many solutions..and they can be very inexpensive. Modern cars have redundancy. There is often a secondary cutoff feature in the computer or AFM that cuts power to the fuel pump.

Unlike manufacturers (who rightly trust their lawyers more than their buyers) I place my inertia switch within reach as one can hit a big bump, cut power to the pump and stall. After a bit of new-habit-creation, one can learn to reach over and re-engage the inertia reset button before the fuel in the engine runs out (seconds). Even if you are not quick enough for that, easy access means you don't have to take off your seat belt, open the bonnet, reset the thingie, and climb back in to rebuckle. To put this in perspective, after 20 years of driving with these things, they pop-open from a pothole once every 1000 miles.

For those interested, one merely has to wire the fuel pump power wire in and out of the inertia switch. Nothing more complicated than that. An inertia switch, (very Star Trek sounding) is merely a connection that pops open when the car has an impact force more than a certain point.

L.

Broadcaster Avatar
Broadcaster Silver Member Bob RA
Glendale, CA, USA   USA
In reply to # 13515 by GoMoG
In reply to # 13513 by Broadcaster Bloody good point I never thought of that. If the switch is in the circuit with ignition switch and once the car is turned off the pump would be turned off isn't that enough? In the past I have had jaguars with electric pumps I was not aware of the inertia switch unless they were built in the pump. Very good point Lorne

Thank you Broadcaster. But I learned the hard way..as have so many others. Yes..the EFI crowd (with their high compression fuel) lead the way. But even after they started installing fuel cutoffs, owners and mechanics would simply bypass the inertia switch or oil pressure feature when they failed (as they often do over time). Then the world took a circuitous route with electrical pumps and carb'ed cars. As these became a common addon, few thought of what happens in a accident and few put in a system to prevent pumping after an accident. Imagine a mild Morgan rear-ender, the fuel hoses become detached or pulled open, and the pump keeps emptying the tank on hot engines, exhaust pipes and brakes! And Morgans made before 1993, normally have their tanks ruptured by the hand brake actuator with anything more than a 5mph accident at the rear or rear sides. http://www.morganownersclub.com.au/Rear%20End%20Collision%20Risk.pdf

It is not in the nature of people to remember to turn the engine off after an impact accident. Normally the car stalls and the electrical fuel pump keeps quietly going about its work.


In reply to # 13514 by tjw Greetings... The advent of the inertia switch came with fuel injection becoming a standard in the automotive world. The electric injection pump will continue to pump as long as the circuit is energized regardless. In fitting aftermarket electric pumps, it became a common to fit an oil pressure switch which would interrupt the circuit should oil pressure drop. You needed to fit a bypass switch to supply fuel to get the car started. Sounds like a good idea to protect the engine should pressure drop but carburetors hold enough fuel to run the engine for a while without a pump and do great mischief to the engine. With the inertia switch, the fuel pump will be inactivated in the event of a significant impact that might stop the engine but not the pump. Yes, you can reach over and shut of the ignition which would shut down the pump but should you be "incapacitated", the pump might continue to run, hence the inertia switch.
Another idea is to fit an electric pump to prime the system. Turn it on when the car sits for a while to bring fuel to the mechanical pump and carburetors and then turn it off and let the mechanical pump do the job. This is the circuit on my 64 Ferrari but the mechanical pump is so lame it is common to just run on the electric pump.
I'm glad Lorne brought this up as I am rewiring the fuel pump circuit on my 59 Turner and will be fitting an inertia switch. The wiring will go from the ignition switch to a switch on the panel allowing you to shut the pump off when you need to have other circuits energized but the engine not running, and then on to an inertia switch and then the pump. Tim(D.Y.M.)

Well said Tim. There are many solutions..and they can be very inexpensive. Modern cars have redundancy. There is often a secondary cutoff feature in the computer or AFM that cuts power to the fuel pump.

Unlike manufacturers (who rightly trust their lawyers more than their buyers) I place my inertia switch within reach as one can hit a big bump, cut power to the pump and stall. After a bit of new-habit-creation, one can learn to reach over and re-engage the inertia reset button before the fuel in the engine runs out (seconds). Even if you are not quick enough for that, easy access means you don't have to take off your seat belt, open the bonnet, reset the thingie, and climb back in to rebuckle. To put this in perspective, after 20 years of driving with these things, they pop-open from a pothole once every 1000 miles.

For those interested, one merely has to wire the fuel pump power wire in and out of the inertia switch. Nothing more complicated than that. An inertia switch, (very Star Trek sounding) is merely a connection that pops open when the car has an impact force more than a certain point.

L.
Wonderful topic so much learnt from a common ailment....Can you recommend a switch and as it has to do with mechanical impact advise us novices where and on which axis should the switch me fitted
I appreciate the thought and the help
Happy Thanksgiving to all

tjw tim w
NorCal, USA   USA
Greetings... Pegasus Racing has a universal fit switch with a reset button. You would need to mount it where you can reach it and if fuzzy memory is working, it goes with the button pointed up but it comes with instructions.

https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/productdetails.asp?RecId=87&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=1108&gclid=CjwKCAiAodTfBRBEEiwAa1hauiaAk0CcKEpk4mT1VT3Wpd1kZuug9bPx7Fm9S82YCn2su5fyplCokBoC71MQAvD_BwE

It is what I will be fitting to the Turner. I don't have any switches on my Morgans because they are still on the mechanical pumps. There is also a nice description of how they work and what it takes to trip them on the Pegasus site. I think it should be mounted to a metal part of the frame as wood might "cushion" the impact.

A friend used one he got at the dismantlers for cheap. I believe it was from a Mercury Sable and mounted in the trunk. It is a safety issue so I will go with new

Tim(D.Y.M.)

GoMoG Avatar
GoMoG Lorne G
Cuenca, Azuay, Ecuador   ECU
In reply to # 13517 by tjw It is what I will be fitting to the Turner. I don't have any switches on my Morgans because they are still on the mechanical pumps. There is also a nice description of how they work and what it takes to trip them on the Pegasus site. I think it should be mounted to a metal part of the frame as wood might "cushion" the impact.

A friend used one he got at the dismantlers for cheap. I believe it was from a Mercury Sable and mounted in the trunk. It is a safety issue so I will go with new

Tim(D.Y.M.)

Our Morgans are light..making the switch more sensitive I believe. I put mine on the side of the glovebox. Use a bit of minor wisdom by using a male Lucar on one of its wires and a female on the other. That allows you to bypass it in a second. I bought mine off ebay or amazon... look for ones with wires dangling so that you don't have to research and buy the right plug fitting. It is always the little things that cause frustration.

L.

38 DHC Mark Braunstein
Vicinity of Orlando, FL, USA   USA
1934 Morgan 3 Wheeler "Moss MOG"
1938 Morgan 4-4 "Uncle Georges Winter Carriage"
1951 Morgan Plus 4 (+4)
1986 Morgan Plus 8 (+8)    & more
Installed the new mechanical pump, with priming lever today, with help from friends. Wednesday is garage day each week and the Morgan contingent in the region descends on my abode and we tinker on whatever is needed. Today nothing pressing so the fuel pump went in.

Cheers,
Mark

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