Morgan +8 Forum

It is often frustrating when ones efforts to correct a problem are not successful, especially when it comes to tuning or adjusting the Morgan.
While I had not laid a wrench against the Morgan's engine, I was worried that what I was dealing with was not easily correctable. My assumption was that the freshly installed, rebuilt engine was properly tuned. But then, my automotive watchwords are "trust nobody", so I finally took a trip over to the auto parts store and picked up a distributor wrench.

When I was about 11, my Dad started buying me tools so that I could work in the family cars. One was a Mercedes 220 "batwing" that had a pair of Solexes, and the other was a Chevelle, with a 4 speed and a V8. This leads me to the Morgan, as some of the tools included a dwell/tach, which would come in handy as the Morgan's tach is still, um... dead.

The worries came from the sort of knocking noise from the engine on start up. This would go away once the thing heated up a bit, but it was still bothersome to me. Even more bothersome as I asked some of my more knowledgable friends to come by and listen. Each said, "What noise? I don't hear anything unusual".
While I am mostly deaf in the mid range, I have special hearing aids set up to bounce the middle frequencies (where the human voice resides) to the higher end, where, ironically, my hearing is close to normal. So, I was hearing this noise.

If you follow the thread, I mentioned that I had an epiphany and would let you know about it. Well, here is how all that came together.

Spark knock? Well, when I was a young lad, tuning my Sunbeam Alpine, I would occasionally time the little 1725 by ear, advancing the timing until I heard the knock, then retarding it slightly, or use the octane/vacuum advance adjustment to set the timing for competition. I never ran into a problem, but I learned that using the timing light was better, and using an advance timing light (20 years later) was even better than that.

I finally connected my timing light to the Rover V8. What I got was so far off as to make me wonder if I had made a mistake in checking the timing mark. When I did my check, I found the the mark was correct, within a degree, maybe a degree and a half. I used a piston stop/TDC indicator, and didn't remove the engine and check it for cam and crank timing with a degree wheel. No need. I am not going to be worried about a degree, or even two, in this case.

What I found is that the idle timing was around 17º btdc, which I think is a little excessive. Occasionally, the engine would hesitate on cranking, which was a big clue.

First, I removed the distributor cap and checked the advance mechanism for freedom of movement and return. It was OK.

Then I loosened the distributor clamp nut and started the engine. I found that I could not turn the distributor to retard the ignition.

Out came the flash light, and I then found that the distributor cap's hold down was against the intake manifold, preventing any adjustment of the distributor in clockwise direction. Evidently, the technician who tuned the engine did this by ear, and turned the distributor as far as it would go. Since the engine ran OK, I guess the technician called it a day and buttoned it up.

Out came the flashlight, and I took a look at the distributor cap and the Buick (yes, a vintage Buick 4bbl intake) intake manifold and found a bit of interference (the cap was hard against the intake manifold casting) between the cap hold down extension of the cap's casting, and the intake. There were also faint witness marks on the cap as well. Yes, the technician who installed the engine could have better positioned the distributor when installing it and doing the initial ignition timing.

No worries, though...

Rather than remove the distributor, I removed the distributor cap and filed the offending piece away. I will go back and relieve the intake manifold later.
Then with a freely rotating distributor, I resumed retiming the engine.

Retarding the ignition eliminated the noise (yeah, spark knock. Obviously.). Using the dial back light, I set it at 10 BTDC to start (vac advanced disconnected), as I have been told that advancing the timing a few degrees was beneficial to power production with this engine configuration, and I was not getting any pinging with the more advanced setting.

The first benefit that I found was that the engine was now running a bit cooler. 15~20F, as far as I can see from the idle temps. The fan is now cycling more frequently.
Starting is a bit easier as well.

The expected benefits of proper timing are realized. The throttle response is excellent, the engine is running cooler, starting is easier when hot, and the idle noise is gone.

So, we have fresh plugs, proper timing and a carburetor that seems to be more accurately jetted than I had originally thought.

In a week full of stress and reduced expectations, the start of this new week is quite encouraging.

Maybe my headers will show up and I can finally uncork this single exhaust 3.5 liter.

Progress is good.

Then... The hand brake cable snapped (Maybe. Have not looked, yet). But the engine runs better.

Off for a drive. More later.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2018-04-29 03:58 PM by SJM1.

Good news. You might have lost a cotter and pivot pin that holds one end of the cable to either the lever or the bell crank at the rear, on top of the axle on the left side. Do you see part of the cable hanging down below the car?

I have not really looked yet. Tomorrow, probably.
'Hoping that its a missing cotter pin or other small bit that I can easily replace without taking out the interior.
But, I do have to install the scuttle hoop, so maybe not so big a deal.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-04-29 09:32 PM by SJM1.

It is a lot of little. A little here and a little there. Also Lorne's "DDE" (Deadly Domino Effect). One problem leads to another solution. Getting a accurate reliable TDC saves a lot of tribulation. Something I never got right on My 3.5. The 3.9 I am using now was out of a Morgan and unmolested. The 3.5 was built by a Machinist but I put it together with My Son In Law. We got the amateurs results.

Button

I like amateurs. They make simple, silly mistakes and are more creative. They produce easy-to-understand machines with lots of easy interaction possible. They lean on and enjoy their fellow owners. This is an "amateur" engine, the first V8 aluminum block and heads, using the then professional cast-iron technology in a new aluminum format. Of course the result was imperfect! This V8 is an engine's answer to the sliding pillars.

Merely a glance at an amateur engine can tell any amateur practiced with it so much about it and so much sadness can be avoided. Experience is the key. Experience has allowed the survival of an very odd (but daring for its time) front suspension for over 110 years and allowed the existence of this odd (but daring for its time) engine to continue in production for 50 years. You don't have to be the best to survive, only the best liked. The term "professional" does not suggest that those who possess it know what they must of this engine, any more than they are familiar automatically with the Morgan front end. I have been called upon to point out simple things that prevent proper function a 1000s of times over the last 25 years, and I am definitely an amateur.

Amateurs don't count the money for their hours and there is no limit to how much they want to know about their passion. As such, they are often have more expertise than professional generalists on the object of their passion.

Of course, the word has two meanings, both in the Oxford Dictionary and reality.

amateur (from the Roman "love" Pronunciation /ˌaməˈtəː//ˈamətʃə//ˈamətʃʊə//ˈamətə/ noun

1A person who engages in a pursuit, especially a sport, on an unpaid basis.

1.1 A person who is contemptibly inept at a particular activity.

In this case, the people who previously handled this car before the recent purchase were, apparently, neither Morgan nor Buick 215 familiar. Without knowing its "tells", there is always a high obstacle to the car's functional survival. I have seen old Morgans get passed from frustrated owner to frustrated owner...actually, merely in search of a sorting that many Morgan hands-on Plus 8 amateurs could do. And Morgan/Rover professionals are rare outside the UK and very expensive anywhere. And frankly, the older setups have not been commonly seen on roads anywhere for longer than the lifetime of most car professionals.

The GoMoG LAW OF MECHANICALLY UNFAMILIAR OWNERS: THE MOST DANGEROUS MISTAKE THAT OWNERS MAKE IS ASSUMING THAT ANY MECHANICAL PROFESSIONAL KNOWS EVERYTHING ABOUT THEIR CAR.

Using this car as an example, its severe timing problem was not unanticipated (and still far from resolved). From what little we are told or shown, I am guessing that the distributor has been installed with its rotor (180 degrees) out, making proper tuning difficult or impossible as either an abutting cap clip or the vacuum advance will prevent it. This is an ABC problem not found in any Manual..yet a very common problem with this engine and noticeable at a glance by cognoscenti. And timing as far off as this one will quickly result in engine damage. The fact is that one can time a decent distributor to anything on this car as long as the car is in a garage and not under load, something that is not possible on a rolling road. Maybe that was the hidden advantage to all Lucas distributors. They were so bad with this engine that they will not tolerate dangerous timing, even when stationary.

From the evidence we have seen, there are more issues incoming. I wish we were permitted to help. I am saddened for the car. But Jan is enthusiastic and that will help.

GoMoG

What difference does the accuracy of the timing marks have anything to do with timing, when you advocate timing by ear, even on a sophisticated electronically fuel injected engine?

That's how my engine WAS timed, and we know how that worked out. The mechanic that set the timing by ear was proud of his work, and said that the starting problems were due to a "rich carburetor". And this guy was a "Morgan Mechanic". He was only off by 15º of advance. "Timed perfectly" he said. He also said that it had to be timed by ear, because the distributor was "modified" and that the engine was "rebuilt". It started and ran, and had other problems as well. Mostly because it was improperly timed. Oh, and it overheated because it still had a thermostat... I didn't believe anything he said.

I found that the timing marks were accurate, using a piston TDC indicator (a relatively common, but old school, tool). Close enough for Gub'mint work, anyway. I am skeptical that the timing marks are off on any of the engines by more than a degree. With the pre emissions example in the Morgan, the marks are accurate enough.

The problem I encountered (interference between the attachment lug on the distributor cap and the edge of the intake manifold that limited the rotation of the distributor) was likely the error of a single tooth in setting the distributor/oil pump drive gear, off by just a few degrees of rotation, causing the small interference problem. Or is it just the wrong cap and distributor housing? The cap has a window, even though it should not need one. If the timing was still so far out as to cause additional timing problems, I am not experiencing any.

The distributor (or its shaft) is not 180º off. If it was, the engine would not run, and, if it did run, it could not be timed properly. The vacuum advance unit would foul the intake manifold and the distributor could not be properly installed. The vacuum advance has plenty of room in both directions, and is properly clocked. The distributor now has a full complement of rotation for timing from ATDC to BTDC. Two swipes of a file on the mounting lug is all it took. I will take a rotary file to the intake manifold lug and then, any distributor cap will work.

In my professional opinion, the timing problem is completely resolved. Having the breakerless ignition will eliminate setting the timing again, unless I take the thing apart. The timing mark is in the correct spot, the timing marks line up with my advance control timing light, and the engine runs quite nicely. I am likely to replace this distributor in the future, so I will take care of any other error when I do the swap (should there be a problem). As for now, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it". The timing is properly set. It won't change anytime soon. Nothing is out of place. All I need to do is run the engine to max advance RPM and do another check at 30º BTDC. I am sure that it will be spot on.

Where it was reluctant to start hot, it now starts with a click of the key. Cold starting is without hesitation. The plug color was improved from white to light brown, uniform on all cylinders with a dark brown ring at the base of the electrode. The throttle response is satisfying. The car is a lot faster.

And Lorne says I still have timing problems? "Far from over", he says. As far as I know, he has not driven the car. I have not heard it leave my garage when I was not driving it. And he has not seen any of the work I have done that has not made it into this thread.

This is not the same car I picked up a couple of months ago. It starts now, coolant stays in the system, and the lights work. The fan is thermostatically controlled, and works perfectly.

What timing problem do you think I still have?

I my world, if I feel that one of the members of the forums that I moderate has not yet solved the problem, I let the owner know what was missed.

This Morgan was the work of many "professionals" (I have a comprehensive history of the car's life and expenses here in the US), and I have been correcting stuff as I go along. I am well aware of the domino effect, and have experienced it in several places on this car as I make the corrections. I especially like it when I do sa small thing that fixes several problems simultaneously. The plugs and the timing fit into that category.

Professional British wiring "experts" installed the harness (incorrectly, leaving many of the circuits inop). Professionals did the paint and body (but the doors are missing the dove tails). A Morgan specialist made a complete mess of the brake hydraulic lines installing a tandem master cylinder (but the brakes work OK, save for that pull to the right. Something to look at this week. I may substitute the calipers and the rotors for better parts. There will be changes to the alignment as well, which will have an effect on the braking as well.

Oh, and the rebuilt engine? The invoice is for $17,000. Ok, but if one can't set the timing or adjust the valve lash properly, what's the point anyway? The details count. i am guessing that the engine builder didn't do the installation, with the restorer hanging on all of the various ancillaries, including the ignition.

This is a very simple car, and it requires simple solutions. While familiarity with the vehicle is helpful, it is not a hard car to learn. If one has experience with pre war sports cars, or even MG T series cars, the body is not a mystery, nor is the electrical system or rear suspension.
The V8 might be a problem if one has not owned a GM or Ford OHV V8 (Where but on Mars could you find such an individual?), but it is not unlike a "small block" Chevy in general layout and parts count. Mine is carbureted. Simple.

More to do? Sure, but the mechanical is just about complete. The coolant stays inside the system, the fan works properly. The electrics are sorted and now, the engine runs quite well. The gearbox shifts well and the clutch is very nice to work with. The cooling fan no longer blows fuses. Steering is smooth and not too loose on center. There is some friction, but not much.
I still need to change the coolant and replace the sticky thermostat. The transmission lubricant needs changing (I will be using Redline 75w/90 NS). The handbrake needs to be seen to. The tach needs to be repaired and the temperature gauge has to be checked out. The wiring is not connected, but it is there and has continuity. Beyond that Hmmm. Brooklands windscreens?

I have some fresh parts. There are the camber plates, requiring a new tie rod or an extension threaded at the mid point of the tube. Either way, same amount of LH and RH threads to be tapped. There is the scuttle hoop and the rear damper conversion.

The brake pull will be corrected when I do the camber plates. The rebound springs will probably stay as they are short and not part of the suspension, Hooke's law or not. Sometimes, doing nothing is the right thing to do. Taking measurements takes away the trial and error.
I have a rear tube shock conversion. It has bespoke AVOs, but I may just call Protech and order another set of their double adjustable alloy body dampers. They work quite well and I can come up with my own solution for the damping.

Not much of a list. The car is in great mechanical shape now, and it is reliable.

So far, its coming around nicely.

I still have not had to leave my garage to handle the improvements. I have not had to tie up the car for more than a few hours to handle any of the past issues.
Not much left to deal with.

I have a few decisions to make with the car's cosmetics, but it does present as a properly restored Morgan. It is not quite up to my standards, yet.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-04-30 10:55 PM by SJM1.

Jan,
When you replace the long tie rod with a longer one you'll notice that the adjustment clamp that attaches the short tie rod (from the steering box) to it can be rotated and left in various positions. There is one position (or a narrow range of rotational position) in which turning the steering wheel does not result in rotating the long rod, causing some lost motion in the steering.

Your experience reminds me of the 1967 Unipower GT I imported about 18 months ago. I think someone threw the car together for a quick sale. I knew it had a long race history, so I was expecting signs of wear and tear, and I had seen photos of it in a race that probably occurred in the last ten years, so I mistakenly assumed it would be drivable (the seller, a collector of plastic cars, told me he had driven it before he imported it to Sweden from Spain, where it was sold new). Other than finding many under/overtorqued bolts and nuts (and finding stuff like coarse-thread bolts run into fine-thread holes in an engine mount) the distributor wouldn't turn (not too uncommon, I'm told, on a BMC A-series engine), fuel pressure was too high, all four wheels were well out of alignment, etc., etc. -- mostly simple stuff -- but when I found the valve timing was 11.5˚ retarded (the cam card said it should be 2˚ advanced) I knew I had to touch every fastener and check every setting. No wonder I could't get it to run when it came off the boat. Inside the timing cover I found a cam sprocket with various dowel positions so that it could be set within 1˚. I knew there would be a shakedown period as I got familiar with the car and had to get creative to get it back on the track when a part in the non-stock shift mechanism failed, but I only made it through the first three laps when the head gasket blew and there was no way to deal with the slipping clutch at the track. When I disassembled the engine I found a few more examples of iffy work (lightened connecting rods with lateral grinding marks instead of longitudinal) and a stock small-block pressure plate suitable for a stock 1 liter Mini. I'm glad I was expecting it or I would have been pretty mad at myself for buying it without seeing it in person.

The reality is that the car has not been that bad. The problems are the "usual" with a restored car. I have rescued quite a few, along with a bunch of kit cars (Mostly Westfield 11s and Caterhams. I am currently updating a Birkin for a friend.

The problems seem to be universal, as most builders or restorers concentrate on getting all the parts on the car, but not sorting everything out.
With the kit build Westfields, there are certain problems that are with EVERY car I have seen (more than 9 so far). These include excessive toe out (because it is not clear to anyone as to how or when to cut the tie rods and rod ends for proper tracking), over torqued bushings, improperly tuned engines, spongy brakes and overheating (due to the installation of a UK type cooling scheme, which doesn't work in California).

The Morgan appears to be properly aligned. The steering is good, and it tracks dead straight. It overheated (well, it expelled its coolant, anyway, and appeared to run hot), there were a bunch of electrical problems (a result of only the lighting and turn signals being sorted, likely to pass the mandatory safety check in Mass. where the car was based).

It started and ran (starting problems initially started with the idea that the carburetor had an automatic choke. It didn't), but didn't want to hot start.
Since the car had a fresh wiring harness that was in excellent shape, I decided that the problems with the electrical were easily tackled. Fortunately, I was right.
The history was pretty good (but I still don't have all the information about the engine rebuild. That said, it is running better than ever with the small changes in tune).

I met Brian Hewlett last weekend. He pointed out a couple of small problems (missing dovetails in the doors), and made the suggestion that I pop rivet the grill bars in place rather than brazing them. We also discussed the tie rod and the amount of additional length needed to accommodate the -3º of change in camber. Note CHANGE, and not a setting of -3º. My initial setting will be -1º. That should do it. If I need more, the pyrometer will tell me.

The brakes work well, save for the pull to the right. This will be addressed when I do the front suspension. I may change the calipers and rotors to a vented type, as that will fit within the 5.5" wide wheels. The brake plumbing to the tandem master modification in the front will need to be cleaned up. This is time consuming, but not difficult and I occasionally find this work to be relaxing. The brake switch will have to be relocated, and the brake line to the rear brakes may need to be re routed. This will be addressed when I install the headers. I can't wait to try this thing with the exhaust uncorked. I suspect that there is maybe 20 HP available once the fumes can find their way out of the engine.

Thank you for the information about the tie rod. I have been looking at the front suspension quite a bit, figuring out how I want to do this simple mod. Maybe 10 hours of looking, and perhaps 2 hours of labor, if that.

My plan is to put a LH/RH hand threaded rod in the middle, so that I can make the tie rod adjustment at one place, and not have a problem with the collar that attaches tie rod to the steering link. I think that I can make a single adjuster for the toe once the steering wheel is straight. We will see how this works. I will know more when I take this assembly apart.

I am lucky in that I have the specialized alignment equipment (smart camber tool, turn plates, divining rods and spirit levels). Not going to be leaving the garage to do the chassis setup.

After degreasing the front end, I was happy with its current condition. No ugliness. and I found the grease fittings. None of the boots are torn and everything seems to be full of grease.

The car is pretty well sorted now. It is substantially different than it was when I picked it up for its 50 mile drive home. Most of the improvement is in the engine, and the electrics work. The rest of the car is reasonably solid.

The next bit of work will be the installation of the door support plates for the scuttle hoop. This will be followed by the tie rod modification and camber plates. The last bit will be the tube shock modification, and the likely substitution of the AVOs for a set of Protech double adjustable dampers front and rear. This way, I can easily set the damping to my specs and not be bothered with any arbitrary pre sets or lack of adjustment with a single adjustment knob.

Other than the oil cooler that I still have to install (after the front suspension is done), the engine is sorted. There are a couple of cosmetic touches (new fasteners, mostly, and new plug wire looms) but other than that, it is running well. I try to not worry about the internal work. Oil pressure is good, as is cylinder leak down.

I have built quite a few BMC As for my friends. The engines are not difficult to work with. Very simple, really. The trick is to do research. Vizard's book on tuning the BMC A is a very useful tool for the builder of any engine. While it covers the BMC A specifically, the information about modification is universal. What works on the BMC A will work on a Triumph, or a Buick V8. The most important thing is to start with a known configuration. I went with the 1380 over bore, with the block prepped (blueprinted), zero deck height, oil galleries opened and threaded plugs installed after cleaning. The rotating assembly is balanced. AE Squeeze cast pistons usually do the job, but occasionally somebody wants a forged Omega. An SPVP3 scatter pattern cam and 10.5:1 compression is specified. The cylinder head is always a Longman, with the big ports and larger valves. Isky pushrods and cam followers are installed, along with roller rockers in 1.5"1 ratio. My intake manifolds are 5" or 6" Maniflow Weber DCOE 45 with a specific venturi and jet configuration. The exhaust header is a Maniflow medium bore, cut and re welded to fit the Westfield chassis. A Fidanza alloy flywheel is fitted. The clutch is a Borg&Beck cover. Disc depends on the transmission.

The result is more than 125 HP on the dyno, every time. I set the RPM limit at a reasonable 6500~6700 RPM. There is more power with more RPM, but I want the engines to last. So far, this has worked out well. None of them have worn out, including my original engine which is now more than a decade old.
And yes, every one has an oil cooler and a fully automated, thermostatically controlled electric fan. So far, no disasters.

I don't wedge the crank (cut the counterweight to save weight) or modify the rods other than to balance and resize with ARP fasteners. The light flywheel and the greatly improved breathing gives sparkling throttle response, and saves thousands in machine work.

The engines have mostly been original when disassembled. The rebuilt engines I have disassembled (only two) have been relatively OK, with no problems. Ironically, not one has needed a crank regrind.

If the distributor doesn't rotate, it is likely that the clamp and the distributor body may be rusted together or over tightened. I fix this by just ordering a new Pertronix distributor (race type, sans vacuum advance, as the Weber setup doesn't offer enough vacuum to make the advancer advance), as it comes with a new clamp. Or, you can straighten the old clamp or order a new one.

I also add the oil cooler to get rid of the oil pipe from the block to the oil filter to give a bit more working clearance to adjust the timing.
Adding the suspenders to the belt, I also time a second, spare distributor with magnetic trigger with clamp so that if I have a problem on the road, I can just swap the distributor (they go in only one way). This takes about two minutes and requires one wrench if the oil cooler plumbing is installed properly.

For a look at a full rebuild of the BMC A and one of the Westfield 11s, https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/WestyXIownersbuildersdrivers/photos/albums/1241605228 It's a build album.

I'll check out the Westfield build album at another time when things settle down around here.

The BMC build you refer to above is pretty close to what I've done. I want grunt and longevity, not a 140+ hp motor that needs rebuilding every season, since this is for fun and not money or glory. I haven't gotten it to a dyno yet but the power band is strong to at least 7000 rpm. I'm using a head built by Neal Slark in the UK to my specs but with his advice about what valve sizes best match my requirements. I wanted an engine that's got a systematic build rather than just tossing in pricey parts and hoping the numbers come out. So not the biggest, most radical everything, but a 290˚ scatter pattern cam, 12.13:1 static CR (which puts dynamic CR about 8.7:1, so it runs fine on the available 104 or 110 fuel), 1.5:1 roller rockers, a long Maniflow steel intake (modified to level the carb) with 45 DCOE, LCB exhaust (unfortunately the pipe diameters are too small for the capacity and rpm range so I'll eventually have to have a new exhaust custom made to fit the Unipower chassis), Omega pistons, decked block, ARP hardware, Specialized Components H-beam rods, Mini Cooper S crank (not wedged but it's been cut undersize, so I may have lost the benefits of nitriding), 13-row oil cooler, etc. Next time it comes out I'll put in a close-ratio straight cut gear set because on the tracks I'm using the stock second gear ratio isn't much use.

The mechanical-advance Aldon distributor was simply corroded in place. I hated to do it, but I used a crowbar to get it out. Thankfully it wasn't damaged and is working fine. It's not easy to get to (nothing on the front of the engine is, since the Mini engine/gearbox in a Unipower GT is mounted behind the cockpit and the items that are usually easily accessed on a Mini are now up against the firewall. I installed a points-triggered CDI but have it bypassed at the moment until I find the time to diagnose it. I have a spare in case it was bad right out of the box.

You attribute so much advice to me that I have never offered. That is not good for anyone. Your interpretation of offerings are incorrect. And forgive me, but you have not answered so many questions or given us enough information to allow responses with any assurance. To be fair, I also note that you do not ask questions of us and I gather you do not want any or our answers.

My thrust here now is to answer not you, but other readers. I am happy you have found an unnamed Morgan mechanics you can rely on along with many unnamed Morgan specialists. It is a very small world and all morgan sepcialists would be well-known to us and we could help you with them. But I have absolutely no intention to correct you to you. And I have come to terms that we do not communicate meaningfully.

What I am worried about is the risk that anyone innocently follow your lead.


That is merely one example. Even today, with its prices of this engine sky-rocketing, you can buy 4 staged full engines new for that cost. We don't want anyone to get an erroneous impression of cost just as all these engines are getting on in years. After all, a new rebuild kit, from the most expensive supplier in world for this engine, costs about $750 https://rimmerbros.com/Item--i-GRID800001 For labor, I have myself rebuilt a number of these engines. It did not take (16250/50) = 325 hours. It takes less time to rebuild the engine than take it in and out of the car.

It will deeply hurt the Community to assume that such costs you note are standard. Or that the paths you are taking, in any area, are within common practice.

Lorne



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-05-01 09:02 PM by GoMoG.

I have to ask questions??? This thread is a narrative. Do you see a question in the title?
It's about my car, and my path to making it wonderful. Why do I have to ask you anything?
Wow, two questions... Happy now? That makes three.

I am sorry that you feel slighted.

BUT...

Lorne, this is MY THREAD about MY MORGAN and has nothing to do with you. Get it? Feel free to discuss, but don't expect me to follow your lead on anything Morgan. I am finding my own way, which is what the thread is about.

Get over it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-05-02 11:30 PM by SJM1.

You do not know me. Anyone who does will assure you that I am not looking for disciples. I have been running from such for years! (wryly)

Our desire to see your car properly sorted is no longer a reasonable priority. But you are proving a wonderfully instructive example ...as long as your narrative is commented upon in a running fashion.

The car has apparently been passed from one set of errant good intentions to another, getting farther and farther from a Morgan datum...so many great Morgans are lost to posterity that way. Like you, I am sure that this is the first time this example has come into contact with a Morgan forum.

In the end, we are all merely current custodians for future custodians yet unborn.

So simply ignore my comments and carry on.

Sorry Lorne, No schadenfreude for you here.

I am quite happy with the way that the car is turning out, and the local Morganists who have seen the car are also impressed. The car is running better than ever, properly timed and the carburetor correctly jetted. The transmission shifts well, the clutch is perfect. It's fast and responsive. That sounds as though it is right on the Morgan Datum, rather than just close. The steering wheel is a leather clad original, and not a polished 4 spoke wood thing from a catalog. I just ordered new dovetails to stabilize the doors. I may install Brooklands windscreens rather than fix the cracked windshield. Or, I might do both.

The car improves with every parts order, turn of the wrench, or twist of the screwdriver. The results of my work are immediately rewarded with better performance and feel. I am having fun.

There is no need here for your "manual". I find it incomplete, incorrect in some cases, and completely incomprehensible.

I shall keep my Morgan for a very long time. My daughter is 3 1/2 and I intend to teach her to drive it. The car is her free ride to college.

There is no good be had in chasing away hands-on Morgan owners. There are few enough participants here on the +8 side of the site. Unless someone new comes along, you will have no one to "help".

I stand behind every decision that I make for my car, and it will likely be among the best narrow chassis +8s extant.

AND

No, I don't know you, and don't care to. 'Never wanted to...

We think that you are a Horse's Datum.

Going through the documentation that came with my car, I noticed a large number of invoices dealing with cooling issues.

There were fan problems and fixes (install a manual switch, remove manual switch as it was "manual", wire fan direct without thermostat switch, address blown fuses), temperature gauge problems (accuracy? 'Not really clear on this from the docs), and air flow (removal of a badge bar, and the addition of an air dam beneath the radiator). A mechanical gauge was installed beneath the instrument panel to better monitor temps.

An overflow/expansion tank (from a 1275 Spridget, of all things) was added, and low pressure radiator caps.

From my own experience with the car, just about none of this makes sense, and none of it worked, anyway.

From my first drive, it did have a tendency to reject coolant through the overflow at the expansion tank (but only after the fan fuse blew). However, the temps never really climbed that high, even in traffic. On the road, the temps would climb at around 75 mph or so, but not too high (210F).

A non contact IR pyrometer was used to calibrate the accessory gauge. It was found to read a bit high, between 10~20F, depending on the needle position on the gauge. Higher temps had a higher error. I can see how this could be confusing to somebody trying to address the problem, if there even was one.

I went at the problem the easiest way, addressing each symptom in order. First, the fluid rejection, fixed with new caps of a higher capacity. Then, I fixed the fan, using a new thermostat switch that was adjustable. This gave me a fan that was working on demand, rather than working off the ignition switch. It cycles normally. Fues stopped blowing. The original fan relay is retained, along with the wiring. I have heard that there are problems with this approach but so far, the fan works fine, and nothing is burning.

The switch was installed using a radiator fin thermocouple, as there was no available bung to screw in a coolant switch. Using the fin type thermocouple saved substantial labor and down time. Installation took less than half an hour. The switch is mounted to the top center radiator mount, along with the thermocouple, so vibration and frame flex are no factor in this installation, and the thermostat adjustment is easily reached.
No manual switch is included in this installation, as a fuse failure is more common than a thermostat failure, and without the fuse, even a manual switch is useless. And, the thermostat switch can be adjusted "closed" if necessary. So far, in over a decade of use, this type of switch has never failed me.
If I do go to a liquid contact switch, it will be installed in a new fill point, or into the current fill point. installing a bung into a part that comes off the engine is one minute is far better than having to pull the radiator. At least from my point of view. Meanwhile, the current switch is doing a magnificent job.

In addition to the switch are the new pressure caps; one 20 lb at the fill point, a 16 lb at the expansion tank. When the fill is pressurized, the expansion tank handles the overflow at 16 psi through the old intake manifold bypass hose. So far, very little if any overflow, and the system has maintained its level for a couple of hundred miles in warm weather. The occasional whiff of fresh, hot coolant is gone.

Another consideration with the cooling was the engine's timing. It had been set "by ear". Finding the pointer hidden beneath the alternator and painted a dark black to match the background, I was able to paint the edges of the pointer white along with the appropriate TDC and 10ºBTDC marks on the crankshaft damper. This made timing a lot easier.

The timing marks were found to be accurate at TDC. Checking the timing of the engine using the dial back timing light found the timing more than 15º advanced, vacuum disconnected. Re setting the timing to 9ºBTDC improved the idle, throttle response, and reduced the engine temperatures at cruise by about 10F or more. 80 mph was easily maintained without climbing temperatures, and the Morgan had better performance.

One of the invoices covered the installation of an "air dam" under the front of the car, at the front edge of the radiator. I a familiar with engine compartment air flow and air dams that may both force air up into a radiator cavity, or to promote a low pressure area behind the radiator to increase air flow. This "air dam" did neither.

There was no place for air to go upwards into the radiator, as the valence above blocked any air from below, mainly to prevent high pressure air to escape the radiator inlet. There was not enough area for the dam to work as a method of producing useful low pressure behind the radiator.

Removing the flat steel panel had no effect on the temperatures. Now, I can easily inspect the front suspension and make adjustments or service the grease fittings. Anything that makes the Morgan easier to service is a benefit. Good riddance.

Perhaps, after the mounting of the oil cooler, I may revisit this scheme, but I am not sure that aerodynamics are where I need to work on this particular car. It no longer overheats, and doesn't have problems cruising at 80+mph. The oil cooler will relieve a bit more high RPM heat from the oil.

I do have one more revision planned for the cooling system in that I will be installing a new fill point with a larger expansion/recovery tank. But, with the system working well now, I am wondering if i should even bother.

The next service for the car is the draining of the cooling system, installation of a new thermostat along with new G 05 coolant. Let's see how that goes.

Meanwhile, I continue to enjoy the car.

With the electrics sorted, the engine tuned and the cooling system cooling, it's time to start on the pile of new parts.

First, I need to decide how I am going to handle the new tie rod. The change in camber form +2º to -1º will move the pillars 1" per side, likely requiring a 2" or more increase in the length of the tie rod. I can make a new tie rod, or I can put a threaded section in the middle to accommodate the change in camber and toe adjustment. Decisions, decisions.

I have the cross head braces to install. This appears to be relatively simple.
Then, there is the revision to the rear suspension, with a tubular dampers and a Panhard rod.

The new stainless headers arrived this week. I still have to order the matching 26" long glass pack mufflers, flex pipes and side exits for the exhaust. I have a steep driveway, and don't want to be dragging exhaust pipes. Also, having to fabricate the rear section of the exhaust is slightly beyond the scope of my garage equipment. Side exits are quick and easy. Not much welding is required, and maybe no tube bending. The current 26" glass pack is actually pretty quiet as a single exhaust muffler, so I don't expect much in the way of additional sound.

When I do the headers, I will be rerouting the front brake lines and the rear brake line to the tandem master cylinder conversion that was installed on my car. The fuel line may also be re routed as well. I am also looking for a small fuel vent expansion tank to stop the occasional fuel smell that occurs with a freshly filled tank. My car has an alloy fuel tank with twin fillers. I have not found any leaks in the tank or the associated hoses, but the over flow is just dumped beneath the chassis. A little expansion can will take the overflow and dump it back into the tank.

I may also install a fuel vent check valve as my Westfields have .

My wife is receiving her PhD this week. It will be a time for celebration for us and our 3 1/2 year old daughter.

Soon, I will have a little more time to work on the Morgan.

I think you'll find your side exhausts to your liking. I'm using a pair of Smithy's mufflers with side exits and the exhaust sound is not objectionable at all at cruise (although they can really roar when I'm using a lot of throttle).

Although it's by no means an exhaustive study, you might be interested in my simple study of Morgan aerodynamics:

https://sites.google.com/site/morganatica/bodywork-and-chassis/aerodynamics

Duncan