Morgan +8 Forum

No Lorne,
Hate to contradict you, but unless I choose not to believe my lying eyes, you can see the resistor block in his second photograph of the coil.

( Lucas ballast resistor block 9BR 47246 A) is mounted behind the coil and quite evident in his photo. This part has various functions, but one function is to act as a ballast resistor.

In fact, if it is not the coil, it would bet the farm that that this part has failed.
Symptoms of its failure include engine running rough and failing. Once that part has cooled, the car will start and run normally until the cycle repeats itself.

This is not a "conspiracy theory" as I have been down that road before.

Someone gets it. And I get to learn something new.

Another potential that no one has mentioned is the distributor. A friend that does a lot of work on TR8s told me that the ignitor in these early electronic distributors could fail with the symptom of hard starting and shutting down after it runs for a while and gets hot. What distributor is in the car?

Don't know about the distributor. I'll get a picture. I'm sure it's original to the car.

Well the engine doesn't run rough at all .....until it stalls. :-) Then after multiple tries to get it started it'll stumble a bit and then run great

Still sounds like a bad coil. Runs fine, then quits. After a bit, can be started, runs fine, then quits.

But, I would still replace the coil first. Cheap, not much labor to install, and you will know quickly if it works.

I would replace that ballast resistor as well. Take the number off of it, do a Google search, find and buy one to go with your new coil.

It's a" Lucas 9BR" ballast resistor. You will find many on Google, or you can check the usual places like Morgan Spares, Moss and others.

Cost for a Lucas 9BR appears to be around $180~$220. Should be easy to install when you are installing the new coil.

Yes, it isn't a $2.50 ceramic ballast resistor like on my '69 +8 (which doesn't have one anymore since I replaced the distributor and coil with Pertronix parts).

I don't blame anyone. I smile at people who try to find cheap local substitutes. It is fascinating and often doesn't always work out for the best. But I understand it. In some countries, Morgans began as a cheap fun hobby for 20 year olds. Many solutions were attempted, always based on price, rather than the best part. Button called them bitsas. He and I would laugh into the night on the enormous sums he would spend trying to find cheap ways to keeping his Morgans on the road.

Some American/Australian ideas, hatched WITHIN the community like those of Bill Fink, have became part of stock Morgans around the world. Did you know that Bill worked closely with Keith Baldwin, the brother who trained Mark (along with Bill Beck), who has been the MMC Service Manager for decades. But I run into so many cases of now unusable Morgans that are a consequence of a lack of being in touch with wider marque community


Dutch posted it. Did you not notice? Dutch is carrying on this formerly informative dialogue on two forums. Have you looked on Talk Morgan?


You quite a handful! I wrote that the lack of a ballast resistor or functioning capacitor causes damage to everything downstream of it, not only the coil. That is only logical. Perhaps his ignition will run for a while with a new coil and that is all, aside from a ballast resistor, I have suggested he buy SO FAR. But the lifespan of everything else that has been fed too much power, for an unknown period, has been shortened to a definite but unknown degree. I have been though this so many times with Lucas 35 series owners (1977 to 2000 (except the odd GEMS owner) I even wrote up an article on it. https://www.gomog.com/allmorgan/BallastResistorVersusCapacitors%7ECondensor.html


Yes. I am sure that is what you would do. You have made that clear and I respect it. But I do not want to spend his money that way. I have no desire to push him out of the Rover/LR fold. He can merely buy one of the better 35 series (there were 4) and only 1-2 are worth it and still being repaired and serviced. That will be painless and inexpensive for him and that way he can fall back 500,000 souls with the same system rather than a few Petronix fans like yourself. It is also much cheaper than your solution and the support and supply community is much larger.

[[color=#6600FF]i]The only distributor I have ever recommended other than 35 Series for a 35 Series Morgan is the Mallory Unilite, which is so widely used in the this V8s community that it is/was virtually stock, incredibly easy to use and reliable. Sadly, as I noted, Holley ended its manufacture for the standard greed reasons so popular with companies these days. However, they still make its parts if ever needed.[/i][/color]


No. A Petronix is more expensive and will require a learning curve that mere replacement won't. And we do not, as yet, know his whether he wants a new distributor. I merely suggested that his is now damaged, old, likely unserviced for decades and he must expect more trouble at some point, maybe now, maybe later.
Neither the 35 Series Lucas nor Petronix is the best that can be had. The UK people have proved that on an oscilliscope. Not to worry, I will not press you on this. I just want him back on the road and happy.

If yours is the route he wishes to take, so be it. That is what forums should be about. Not someone raging when his remedy is not religiously followed. At this stage, a Petronix, not mainstream,I have told him to buy a ballast resistor and and a coil. He can make exotic bit decisions after he is comfy with his car and knows more. Do people HAVE TO DO & SALUTE at whatever you tell them. (shiver)


I am not a Holly 390 fan. Messy things compared to a Weber. I have written on it. Did you know that the great fit of Webers was discovered in the UK. Webers were being made in Spain, a copy of the earlier (bankrupt) Carter. The good Mr. Edelbrock, an excellent manufacturer, buys the rights or copies the world of others. He renamed the carb the Edlebrock performers. But its lore in the world comes from the UK. For example, using his intake manifold will not possibly with your car. Youn would have to use a Offenhauser or one of the UK manifolds.


My you are really an odd person! Here is the story which I have not explained for reason below. My car was destroyed by a young USN sailor in Maine, almost killing myself and my wife. The car melted before our eyes. The Navy shipped the sailor out the next day as he had no insurance. He had registered his vehicle with an insurance certificate he obtained with a NSF cheque. They wanted to protect him. Such things are allowed in some places.

Morgans cannot be imported to Canada, unless as an antique. The experience was devastating and left with me with a destroyed disc issue that kept me in deep pain for 2.5 years. On the car side, Gerry Wilburn and the Canadian government, suggested I could have the car "repaired" as long it was "authentically" done according to my insurance and not written off. But the insurance company was angry at having to pay for an accident I did not cause. At the time, I was too high profile (in 2002) and naysayers and a small handful like yourself, were already saying that the result would not be a "REAL" Morgan or Lorne-involved.

With my connections, I simply had the Morgan Motor Company recreate the car at the Works to cut the first stuff blessedly short. The entire MMC staff of the day signed the floor and they and the community were very proud. You're different. The car arrived at Montreal's port one the 6th of January 2003, without an engine, a cooling system, an exhaust, a transmission or electrics received by a man who could barely get out of bed. Image below. The MMC management level staff was so embarrassed at the CEOs decision to ship the car as it was that they paid for the Service/Development Manager (27 years), to fly over, live with us and help sort it. However, it took me a year or two after to get it perfect. Pretty much the standard time for any Morgan, new or restored.

I don't write about such things because I want the marque to be proud of what happened. We all should be proud of the MMC of that day. Sadly, decades later, you pop up. It was inevitable.


Actually, as you know, reduced voltage can make many components more precise. But this is not an occasion for you to admit that. A car cannot reliably and precisely produce alternator voltage 24/7 but it CAN produce less than that with precision. A good experiment for anyone here, would be to remove your voltage regulator and see how steady your Smith's instruments become. Mallory, one of the oldest distributor makers on the planet, and once the Ford main distributor supplier, used reduced voltage electronics.

But as I said, I have no problem with people doing with they choose AFTER they know all the options. You dislike that.


I did. On the other forum. Your arena is limited. But you make a point., On eMog we had a rule against cross-posting
https://www.talkmorgan.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/788542/re-1980-plus-8-stalling#Post788542


No. Good for some people. I like Larry and Linda. I have named them as one of my three favorite Morgan mechanics, unusual as I normally refrain from pointing to any one dealer. That would be very political for gomog to do so in the UK or Europe. We even cross-inform each other on many occasions. In fact, I was about to drop them a note on AVOs to update them on what is happening in the UK. There are relatively few LR/Rover V8s in the US. Logic should indicate to you that there is far more info and experience for such as I in the UK or Downunder. Have you bought ANY of the many British books I suggested on the engine? Do you know of any authored in the US? This says nothing uncomplimentary about the US automobile acumen, it merely notes that this is an engine made far away with its technological development centered across the ocean for the last 60 years. That being said, your engine is virtually a Buick 215. You should stick with that crowd. Even I have bought the odd item from TA. Have you tried a Buick distributor? John Sheally II, the famous American racer uses them.


Yes. Pre-1977 can be frustrating, especially for relative newbies like yourself. The kneejerk reaction is to send you post 1977 stuff. To knw what your car needs off the top of their heads means that they would have best been born in the 1930s so that they would be adults at the in 1969. Incorrect part supply is frequent. And there is an illusion, I mentioned before, that these cars are exactly like all other Plus 8s, especially in the supply market.


Yes, I know that. And I enjoy watching. It was once a great part of American culture, now sadly disappearing though I would give the nod to Virginia Beach as its originating center, However, in the main, the subject cars have been of American origin, not a the MASSIVE community one finds for yours in the UK. It hurts me to see bitsa solutions when more reliable ones, very well supplied, can keep someone within the Rover community, with its lore and experience rather than push them out of it.


Did you know that the a dealer (Scottish) in the UK constructed a Traco Plus 8, based on a Sport Lightweight? He pulled the Rover engine and swapped in an 215 Oldsmobile with quad Webers. Two bonnet cutouts were needed to fit it. There was not much space for the V8 and measures had to be taken until Bill Beck restructured the chassis a bit to have them fit. Bill was the fellow they MMC sent over, mentioned above


As I told Dutch, on Talk Morgan, before anyone here had answered, the immediate culprit was the coil. And I advised him, to install the dangerously missing ballast resistor but be prepared as there is damaged components downstream. I prefer replacing known damaged components before they ruin my mogging vacation or day.


????


Yes Dutch. Please follow SJM's advice. This is not worth the agro.

SJM, go look at the information you have missed on Talk Morgan. I linked to it above. I also responded to a private message from Dutch.
My apologies.

gmg



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023-10-23 05:04 PM by GoMoG.

No reason to hate and your eyes never lie. See people, there are those much smarter than I.
The only way to get this stuff right is through back-and-forth debate. Not "my way or the highway".

I have posted the part by itself below. Is it somehow not grounded on the valence Lance?


How cool! But it is anything but evident. Can I get images of other earlier ballast resistors and coils from other plus 8ers here. Is this one like yours Lance? My 1984 came with the standard ceramic ballast resistor they used for ages..before they switched to those rusting coil/condensers in the 1990s


How can something that simply fail? Sadly, these ballast resistors seem to be no longer available. It would be best that he move to something he can find anywhere. BTW, I have never had my ballast resistor fail, though my bonnet stay shorted it out once outside of Bristol and my car stalled and it burned out the optic unit in the Mallory distributor. I carry a spare. Was that coil hot or what!


I don't know. You are, after all, a bearded man with eyes very close to each other.

Thanks for the help.

Lorne



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023-10-23 06:01 PM by GoMoG.

I checked with Morgan Spares and they have the correct coil. They also mentioned I might want to get a new ballast resistor too.

From them:

Yes so we can supply a coil, do you need the ballast resistor as well? Or just try the coil first?

We can send you a Pertronix coil and that has ballast resistor already built in

In the meantime thanks all for all your advice and patience

I wish I had the time to tell you of all the problems I'm having with my 2012 3 Wheeler sitting in my garage not running. :-)

Greetings...You may or may not need a ballast resistor in your car. The ignition needs to have about 3 ohms resistance in the primary circuit. This typically is done one of two ways. Your ignition coil may have about three ohms resistance so no additional resistance is needed. My 61 and 66 +4's are that way. If you have a coil wirh about 1.5 ohms resistance, you need a resistor which might be an external unit, typically a wire wound ceramic piece or a resistance wire in the harness. Checking coil resistance is simple-just a meter across the terminals on the coil. Both terminals of the coil should disconnected. Then read the voltage being supplied to the coil. If that voltage is about 9 volts, there is a resistance wire on the harness and you don't need an external resistor but you do need a coil with about 1.5 ohms resistance. If you are getting full battery voltage you need a coil with 3 ohms resistance. This all assumes no ignition amplifier (cd unit like MSD).

Tim

Seriously, THE BALLAST RESISTOR IS STILL INSTALLED AND HOOKED UP ON THIS CAR. CHECK THE PICTURE. So maybe he doesn't need to replace everything. Maybe just the coil, or maybe the ballast resistor.

I am sure that Dutch will call Linda and get the right parts. Of course, note that the new ballast resistor of the same type is near $200. So, maybe not that, or a coil that doesn't need one. From Pertronix, I bet. They seem to be the go to now. Even for the Silver Ghost Society. 'Surprised even me.

And if you want to go on a tangent... Well, ok.

And you can't post the correct useful information here if you posted on TM? NAAAHHH. I find that hard to believe. Why would they care? Are they threatened by Morgan Experience? Are they paying you a retainer? Do you have an NDA?

They don't scare me. Why you? Don't bother... The Morgan's engine is not even Morgan, nor is the ignition system Morgan specific. Who would care if you told someone "out of school" as to which coil to use? Doesn't make sense. That distributor and the ballast are also listed as Jaguar parts.

'No point in an Edelbrock/Weber Vs. Holley argument. The latest Holleys can be screwdriver adjusted, while the Edelbrock's are easy to adjust, using old school needles and jets ('cause I have the master jet kit, a CO meter and a wide band Lambda, this is not that hard). And, there are always the automatically adjusted, self programming digital TBI systems. 'Getting better all the time (though I do think that port type is better.). Anyway, when it comes to engine setups or carburetors, it's what ever works for you. I have a "Weber" Edelbrock.. You know, Vick used to keep his Aero Commander in the hanger next to mine when he was visiting Santa Monica. I still laugh when I see "Magnetti Marelli" on the carb body. I keep thinking "AFB". I'm thinking that you are about 15 years behind the times. Maybe more. And remember, you are only a couple of years older than I am. I can drop names, too. Probably more than you can, as I was writing about them for 20 years and attending their briefings, along with numerous lunches and dinners.

We hotrodder/racers use what works. After all, that's what Morgan did, using bitsa this and that (yes even a concourse Morgan is a "Bitsa", sticking the parts into a '30s chassis that was stretched and pulled only slightly over nearly a century, using whatever engine that they could make a good deal on, and what pieces that they could make fit (think about the slave cylinders...). There is nothing mechanically special about the Morgan, other than that it exists in rather small numbers, and is great fun. It is made of parts of every other British car that was around, using a universal wiring scheme from Lucas. It really is not that far removed from an American '32~34 Ford hot rod. You can be snooty about it, but it doesn't fool me. I HAVE ONE IN MY GARAGE, AND I HAVE TAKEN IT APART AND PUT IT BACK TOGETHER. There just is not that much that is unusual about it. Even the later cars are not that difficult. I have even helped several owners with their EFI problems, which turned out to be universal EFI problems. Anyway, yours is a Bitsa, just made with more money. And, BTW, you don't really know much about the early +8. Your own admission and as shown in practice. Because there are only 467 (give or take, I heard 436, with is a number I happen to like) of them, or something. Whatever. Truth be told there really is not that much car there to learn if one is familiar with '30s coach building. But feel free to feel so special. There are a dozen owners on this site that know more about the cars than you do, and post wherever they want. So go ahead, make your excuses again. Or don't bother. We all know.

TRACO built a Jaguar E Type engine for me in the '70s. Built an engine for my Uncle's C2 Corvette n the 60s. Traco built lots of engines for lots of people. They were specialists in the BOP V8, at the beginning of the USRRC and CanAM. There is still a TRACO shop in Santa Monica. That TRACO made an engine for a Morgan is not a surprise. They also made a Ferrari engine for Penske.

I have been building my own engines for the last 30 or so years because it's fun, and I get paid well when I do it for others (only on special occasions, for special friends). Also, because they work and put out good power. i seal ideas from everyone. Whatever works.
I am building my 3.5, with my own hands. Pictures coming soon. OHHHH, I can feel the cringe from here. Not worried. I won't be listening to your suggestions. I have others who make their living at this to offer me their help. AND...
As the lady said to the sailor "This is not my first". Not even my first V8... I am using a famous So Cal shop to do the block and recip assembly machine work and balance. I have not decided on the cylinder heads. Might be the same shop. And, there will be a surprise for you that i will reveal just prior to the start up in the video. There will even be a tutorial. I am sure that you will see something that you will declare "dangerous" and improper to show anyone.. Sort of like the Southpark opening warning. Redline 6000, maybe more. Wheeeee!

The first pictures will be along soon. The parts are rolling in. Oh, it isn't going to be polished like yours is. Not important.

My experience is far different than yours, with a much deeper well of experience, much of it is easily transferred to Morgans, which are, believe it or not, simple cars that appeal to mechanical guys like me. They are not pretentious or haughty, and can exercise all sorts of an owners skills to keep on the road, modify and enjoy.

Some may still worship at your every word. Not me. The real experts are not threatened, and post wherever they want.

if you can't give out the information here because you are on TM, well, there are lots of owners here that can help. If I was you, I would just post were you want. That's what I do.

Odd isn't it? Most of the world buys British parts from Britain.


No, it isn't unless you have found a very odd place to buy it. Can you provide a link? I have never heard of any ballast resistor costing that much. They must think the world is full of suckers. What moves you to give out such information to the world?

That ballast resistor is no longer available, though one can always find used stuff...which bodes ill for the future and its usefulness. As Lance mentioned it can fail and therefore, inevitably, it will fail. But the later more common ballast resistors never fail, as this one and the condenser/supressors. He would be best moving to a ceramic ballast resistor (6$ new) as I and most of these engines use decades without a problem.

And as I said, internally ballast resisted coils cost far more and get unbearably hot in usage as there is nowhere for the heat to go saving the coil casing. They burn through skin. I bought one from Mallory (the red top) and later Mallory themselves told me never to use one.


Pertronix. Not used by many of these engine owners. After all, it is a US company making parts for locals. Most still use Lucas. As I noted earlier, some cultures insist on buying parts made for their domestic made cars and fit them to foreign cars. Australia, the US and the UK. Maybe it is an anglo cultural thing as it is not a characteristic of other countries. It is interesting for me to watch. I generally source the best parts wherever in the world there is the most expertise and choice, Pertronix is not one of those, but Mallory was. I convinced (it was a struggle!) many outside the US to use them. Rpi's biggest recommendation along with the racing engine developer, Real Steel and others.


You are mistaken and very ugly once again. It's very strange. I gather you didn't look at the thread I linked this group to. I did not post this matter to Talk Morgan. Dutch did. I courteously replied to him and his private message. Others there did as well. (shrug) I am sorry that upset you.


Why on earth would they? They are Morgan owners and frequently the same people (except more of them) that you find here. Many Americans, Germans, etc.


Why not? It would be a learning experience for many here. You have mentioned Rpi many times. Have you read this?


Yes, hotrodders certainly do. I am simpler. I use what is best and most reliable and that is a never-ending re-examination process. As most of my outings have been more than 3000 miles at a time for 30 years, I would be unwise to chance anything else. It would be grounds for divorce.


I cannot claim your glory. Aside from an etype 6, I have only built these Rover/LR V8s from a bare lower block on up..many times. Not hard, IMHO. Some of them have been built with and for friends. But I certainly don't charge them! After all, this is my hobby and they are my friends.


First time? Well done.


I didn't think and hoped you would not ask. You are not exactly a listener.


Ask Lance what happened when he tried that. He is anything but alone in his experience. But I am sure you will be ok. And these engines, new or rebuilt, cost MUCH more than used to.


It is hard not to detect very negative emotions in you. Are you damaged in some way? That would explain a lot. If you want 100s of images of our engines being made, or rebuilt or even cast at the foundry, I can provide them. But we all take great pride in our work. Post away.

I did not ask for my engine to be polished, Chris Crane (Rpi) decided that on his own. If I have enough lifetime left, I think I would take one of my spare engines and have electro-polished. Yes, I have more engines than Morgans. But I cannot claim any fame for that. John Sheally II has a garage in Virginia with a couple of dozen Buick 215s piled high in columns. Image below


That's great! But who is the one here who wants to be worshiped?


I am not interested in unconnected pontifical posts. That is something the current forums remaining lean to. I want a discussion, an exchange of opinions and experience. Lance's recent intervention is EXACTLY what I hope for. It makes it much safer to post on a forum that can effect so much. Everyone who knows me will confirm, I THINK I am merely one of the crowd. Your odd and erroneous perception suggests you are the source of your own notions.


99% of those here are also on Talk Morgan. If you chose not to merely click the link to Dutch's thread there I gave above, what can I do?

gmg

P.S. If you trying to be an US Morgan community star, you are far too late. JHS2 took that position 50 years ago.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2023-10-24 01:02 AM by GoMoG.

Just some education on my part. I took the distributor cap off and there's a plastic cover over where you would normally adjust points. It says it was adjusted at the factory and doesn't need any adjustment.

So electronic ignition ?

Yes, electronic ignition. 'Should be working fine. Not much to fail inside the distributor. I would stick with it. unless your problem continues. Then... you have choices.

My own experience with this sort of problem has been traced to a bad coil (a good place to start in your case), bad condenser (not your problem as you don't have one), a bad relay that supplies power to the ignition (not a system in an SU equipped Morgan, unless it is... 'Haven't seen your car's schematic), a shorted battery (which was relatively new), a voltage control relay (you probably don't have one) and the ignition switch (if it wasn't for the 2nd degree burn on my index finger, I probably would not have found that one for at least a couple more drives). That key switch thing? 'Drive, everything is working fine, then it quits. What was worse, was that it would sometimes restart on its own (as I was driving in gear), then quit flat sometime later. Once I burned my finger I had the epiphany. New ignition switch the next day, no more problems.

You are on the right track. Put the distributor cap back in place, and wait for your new coil. There seems to be some question about the ballast resistor. I would replace it with an OE part if I was not going to replace everything north of the spark plugs (distributor, coil, essentially the entire ignition system)... The coil is the right place to start, and don't worry about some sort of cascade failure that has already occurred. Not every part of your ignition has failed due to some sort of conspiracy theory. You can always order a new ballast resistor if you don't have one coming, or have changed to a coil that doesn't require one. As for that ballast resistor price, I ran the Lucas PN. It was more expensive than I thought it should be, even in the UK, used. Maybe Morgan Spares has a better price. In most cases, though, you buy it, install it, and forget about it. You probably won't have to replace it again. Worth it, if it makes the car run properly.

I ran into a few intermittent problems in my Morgan after I acquired it. Some of them had to do with poor restoration quality, such as the improperly installed electrical wiring, to failure of some components that I didn't know existed until I looked at the wiring schematic (a relay for the ignition light? Yes. it has one). Then, it all became clear, and the parts were ordered (not at all expensive, all OEM, btw), replaced and the problem corrected. It's a simple car. When I needed some specific help (as with the "not repairable" temp gauge (tested and found operational), or the "NLA" temp sending unit, I contacted the OEM, got a part number and bought a couple, new, on UK Ebay. Cheap. Saved $250 in gauge repair/modification, and a couple of hours labor (R&R instrument panel and gauge, Not that much fun).

Love the pictures. Thank you.

All Lucas 35D series distributors are electronic. (1977 to 2000 in the UK and 1977 to 1996 in the US) You are looking at the dust cover. There is no need to remove unless you rebuild the distributor. I gather you are (wisely) changing the cap and rotor. If so, I assume Linda and Larry, agreed with me. This is the usual practice when anything has gone wrong with the ignition as they are very inexpensive parts. (shrug) Or here is a well-known US supplier.

CAP & ROTOR https://www.roverparts.com/engine/ignition/D608600/
COIL https://www.roverparts.com/engine/ignition/RTC5628/

All the 35D series use the same cap&rotor, though there ARE minor differences in the contacts. The Blacks are original to these engines. The blues are aftermarket.

L.