Morgan +8 Forum

Nice looking set up, I have seen those on several cars in the club.

I prefer running the pipes out the back for the appearance as well as noise. My pipes and mufflers are stainless and the mufflers have offset inlets and outlets. You do have to flatten the pipe a bit behind the rear wheel, but not much and it should be slightly upswept behind the wheel to keep from scraping on driveways. I think you will be happy with that setup also.

I already have a flattened pipe and it bothers me as it restricts flow a bit and looks cobbled (maybe I could find a good oval pipe, but.. To do rear exit pipes, I would need to do some bends, and my entire plan is based on doing all of this work in my garage, so bending is out. I also want side exits, not unlike the Canadian +8 that has not been altered. The entire exhaust system is a straight shot, so fabrication is simple, as are the brackets to support the round, straight through glass packs. These mufflers are the same as the single straight through that is on the car now. It's pretty quiet with all 8 cylinders being dumped into it. I am already nearly deaf, so I am not worried about sound. Hopefully, it will be sonorous, at least what I will hear of it. I had a side exhaust Aero 8 for a while. I liked it.

Also, I intend to run 205/70 tires to replace the 185/70s Avons CRZZs that I am using now, so I am going to need the space taken up by the rear exit exhaust pipes. The 205s are precisely the same diameter as the 185/15s and the measuring rim is 5.5". (Note: The CRZZ 185/70s are taller than any of the other 15" tires available, and there are not manny performance tires to choose from. The 205s are very slightly taller, and with the short gears of the Moss +8 and our fast moving traffic, I could use another couple of hundred RPM per mile, as I prefer to cruise at 3500~4000 RPM. Anything to stay out of the truck lanes. I really like the CRZZ Avons as they wear well, and are very grippy, with a very gentle transition to oversteer. Expensive, but worth every penny.

I have a full tube shock rear end kit to install, and a Panhard rod to keep the axle in place to better maintain clearance with the larger tires when cornering There is also a negative camber kit as well, with a longer steering tie rod to handle the wider stance with the nearly 4º change. The front dampers will be double adjustable AVOs. Now, all I need is the Gemmer steering box...

There are a few other plans, including a better intake (but not Edelbrock) and improved heads and cam to better take advantage of the 10.5:1 compression. Maybe a lightened flywheel when I change the clutch. I really like throttle response. HP isn't bad, either.

Jan - question re: your tire plans. As I recall from previous discussions of the Avons, there was a downside related to tread life. Maybe not a problem but there was a reason I decided against them back then. I have Vredesteins on my 1971 and 185 is about it on the fronts without reducing clearance and getting rubbing when turning at the limit. When I last did a search for alternatives, I did find some very desirable Michelins, which I prefer, available from a supplier in the UK and that will likely be my plan when I need new rubber. I'll be curious how the 205s work out on the front since I think it's the width at the tread/sidewalll vs the rim width or other dimensions that causes the problem. No room for a spacer either given the narrow width. Good luck! David

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David P. Crandall [MSCC #4128, MOGNW, Morgan Plus 4 Club,
3/4 Morgan Group interclub/international liaison]
23 NE Morgan Street
Portland Oregon 97211 USA
www.morganstuff.com
email mogdriver@gmail.com
1971 Plus 8 [Green Meanie]

My mufflers have offset outlets and that rear pipe is almost against the chassis, so I didn't have to flatten the pipe much, just a touch and it isn't hurting anything. I can weld so cutting and welding pipe is not at issue. I also have a muffler shop close at hand and if I need a bend they can do it easily. I understand that if you want side exhausts you should have them.

You have a large list of modifications that you want to do that I would not; from tires to the steering box, perhaps you just need a newer Morgan rather than a nice vintage Moss box Plus 8?

I am already running the CRZZ in 185/15. They are excellent, and tire wear is also minimal. These tires were recommended by the racers using them, mainly due to their excellent ability to handle heat cycles, and long life on the track. My own experience shows minimal wear. But only about 3000 miles so far. No problems and the tires will last a very long time.

My experience with the Vriedestines that were on the car was not so good. The car, on old ones, with only a few hundred miles, was unstable under braking and absolutely scary in the canyons, with zero predictability. I still have one (it's an old, unused one), but that one will go as soon as I decide which tire size I will keep in the CRZZ. I have driven on newer Vredestines, and was not impressed. I really wanted a more performance oriented tire. In any case, I was able to get the CRZZs quickly from Krause, and immediately impressed with their feel and performance. Also, they looked perfect on the car.

The real problem with tire selection is size and being able to get a performance tire, as opposed to a sedan/SUV tire, or one of the specialty vintage tires, such as the Vredestine, which seems to be the usual go-to tire for 15" wheel Morgans. Most of what I was looking at was discontinued, or in 60 or 55 aspect ratio, being too short (and with the gears in my Moss car, and my need to get where I am going, that is a factor to consider).

While I can probably find another tire in the Michelin range from Longstone in the UK (I purchase Dunlop vintage race tires from them), I am pretty happy with the CRZZs, and they are easily replaced if I damage one. Of course, I could run 550X15 bias ply Dunlop vintage race tires... Wheee! 4 Wheel Drift! Maybe not a bad idea... But even more expensive than the CRZZs.

As for the muffler offset, it doesn't help the problem of the narrow rear wheel space. I have a couple of inches more space without a pipe back there, competing with the tire for space. So... Side exhaust it is.

This +8 is sort of a dream project, and I have a pretty good picture in my head as to where it will end up, and how it will work. It will be period correct, for the most part, but with some adjustments to ease maintenance, while increasing enjoyment and keeping its bones intact. So far, I have been able to return the electrical system to reliability, have the temp gauge working perfectly, starting, hot and cold is now normalized, and the vehicle systems, reliable. There are still some older components to take care of, but those things will be addressed on an IRAN (Inspect and Replace As Necessary) basis.
I was warned of terrible things that would happen if I didn't maintain my Morgan in a specific manner, do specified repairs in a specified way, or use some specific parts. So far, I have been quite happy ignoring most of that (save for the parts that I had already taken care of). I have put on quite a few miles, with no problems and no really good stories (other than the broken rear brake line). The car is now validated, and really works well. Finally, I can now make it my own. Headers, then the suspension, finally the steering.

Well, terrible things won't happen, these are really simple vehicles at least the old ones are.

I had a friend now sadly gone who ordered a new Plus 8 in the late 90's when the works built a batch of conforming vehicles for the U.S. market, he was 80 years old at the time, but they did get it to him in about a year. I had many opportunities to drive that car and comparing it to my old rickety Moss box car it was really excellent. Smooth 5 speed, 3.9 FI engine, good handling rack and pinion, and wide wheels and tires, good fuel economy also. Really a great car and I got to take it on a road trip down into the Blue Ridge once for a week. However, I have to tell you, maybe it is because I am used to these old cars, I really prefer the operation and appearance of my old car for a number of my own reasons. It doesn't have a Gemmer box which I don't like at speed, it still has lever arms at the rear, you only have about 4" of wheel travel back there, not sure what advantage tube dampers offer, and relatively narrow oem wheels and tires and of course the Moss box, no T-5. It will stay that way too as for what it is and where it came from, it is a pretty good old car and I like it.

I was originally looking at an '88, which was a gas car, and had a CA exempt sticker, which was interesting... Anyway, it had a scuttle hoop and the rear, with tube shocks and a roll bar. Very low miles and in very nice shape, and the right price. My only problem is that my sale of my previous car didn't come together as I had planned so I had to put the purchase on the back burner for a month or so, By the time I had all the ducks lined up, the lovely BRG and Black one was gone.

But there was an early "70" that had been around for a while. Yellow... not my favorite. I drove it, and found a few problems... Well, a lot of problems, but the basic car was good. The gearbox shifted OK for a Moss, the clutch was just fine, and the engine seemed to overheat, but maybe not. There were some body issues, but nothing serious. "good bones" I thought. There was a ream of receipts for, um... everything. and the price was a bit high, but early cars are rare, and if I wanted one, I had to step up. The next 3 years the car was driven, corrected, driven and corrected some more. So far, so good. It has not been particularly difficult or expensive, and very satisfying. Definitely not the same car I started with. It's main problem now? Wooden steering, full of friction or looseness, and no happy medium. This is not unusual for worm and peg. I am not sure that I have ever driven a Morgan, or any other car, with a worm and peg steering box that really steered with precision. My Morgan is better than some I have driven, but not as good as it would be with a proper recirculating ball 'box. 'Good thing that I can just buy that, and install it. The rest, from the brakes to the dampers, is certainly serviceable, and reasonably modern. It all works, well. Any problem with a Gemmer and high speeds can probably be traced to alignment, likely toe out or excessive toe in. I can't wait to get one. My favorite finding about my car was that, with me in it, it had perfect distribution of its weight between its 4 wheels, with about 2% bias to the rear, zero wedge and cross weight within 6 lbs. 1900 lbs. precisely. That, I can work with.

One of the biggest differences between modern cars, and stuff from 50 years ago, are the improvement in dampers. Modern dampers can handle higher damper speeds (compression to extension), and work over a larger range of damping ability. Modern dampers can take a sharp bump, and not "lock up" before the fluid flows through the internal valves. Better handling can be had without the stiffness. The Morgan has lever shocks in back, which are valved at about 50/50 bump/rebound and have not changed since the dawn of suspension dampers. I like more rebound, and sometimes less bump, as it takes the "kick" out of hitting a bump as the spring releases its energy. I can adjust for this with certain dampers, and I am making that change in my car. Even with limited suspension travel, a Morgan feature, the ride and handling can be improved (somewhat). Since I am not changing the spring rates (so far, they appear to be in the ballpark), the character of the car won't be changed. But it won't be chattering around bumpy corners as much, or beating me up on a bumpy stretch of freeway. It could be that after all my fiddling, I end up where I started, but I am pretty sure that my particular chassis would benefit from better dampers. Remember, when it was originally prototyped, most of the +8s components were off the shelf, picked to make the car work, and stay within budget. I don't have to do that. I can re develop the car without changing the major work, through careful adjustment and preparation.

The chassis tracks true, and high speed stability is fine for cruising at over 85 mph, which I found to be amazing. I enjoy driving it quickly. Changing to a more accurate steering box will make the car even better to drive, reducing effort and improving feedback, getting rid of the on center looseness. Putting in some negative camber will put more front tire on the ground, improve tire wear and reduce understeer in really tight corners, and offer a sharper turn in. This is simply taking what is there, and making it work as well as it can. The steering, brakes and the engine will all be optimized. The Moss... I am not sure that there is anything I can do about that. Bit I can shift it, up and down, grind free, most of the time. It's a skill. A T5 won't fit, so... I will fortify the engine for high constant RPM. Problem solved. Besides, the thing is really quick with the short gears, and I don't have to down shift to pass anything.

I was lucky that in my college years, I had a Bugatti Type 57, Rolls Royce PIII and a Jag XK-150S coupe to drive and maintain on a regular, weekly basis. Learned a lot about the older cars, and how they worked. I had driven the first Morgan +8 in the US back then, and it left a lasting impression. What I remember most is that it was quick, and felt demanding, sounding much like the straight 8 Bugatti. It shifted about as well, too. I loved it, but for the price at that time, having just graduated from high school... So I waited another 51 years. Now, I have one.

It's turning out to be just what I wanted.
I just ordered some expensive Stage 8 fasteners so I can bolt up the headers. "I" (installation) day is fast approaching.

Come and drive mine. I find the Gemmer box a little too light at higher speeds for my liking. Sort of like over assisted power steering. My rear lever arms have been modified with stiffer valving and given the small amount of travel back there have been adequate for the vintage chassis. There are Konis at the front but honestly the OEM dampers were not all that different. I do not expect my old Plus 8 to ever handle like a Miata, hit a bump mid corner and you will know it, this is not going to change.

If you can find a way to increase the caster slightly, you might find that the steering is not so light. You might also check the toe (sounds like it is toed out a little or toed in too much. If it snaps into corners, I would guess toe out. (a setup I like to use) If you install the slotted camber plates, you might get some caster adjustment out of it. That would probably solve your problem.
I do my own alignments, using a "Smart Camber Tool" and a pair of NASCAR type toe plates with a pair of tape measures to set the toe. Quick and easy.
The Gemmer is more accurate, which isn't really the problem you are experiencing. Light steering effort and twitchy high speed handling is a problem of alignment and aero.

My rear damper kit has some bespoke AVOs that are supposed to be better. If they don't work, I will go to double adjustable in the rear, too. One thing that i don't thing it needs is stiffer bump damping.

I really like the early +8. It carries the proper look, without the extra lights, padding and the later, silly bumpers and steering wheel. It's the pure form of the Morgan. It's also lighter.

Jan, I have no problems with my original Cam Gears box, the toe is fine and I made up camber plates years ago. I have driven a couple of other cars with the Gemmer box and felt that it made the steering a bit light for my liking. I may be one of the few, but I like the original steering, the box is adjusted up with the high point centered and the adjuster is not over tightened. There is very little free play on center. This box was used on many cars of the period and when adjusted up properly it is fine although not rack and pinion, but that is ok with me.
Make sure the tie rod end tapers are tightly bolted in. Although there are cotters and nuts so they can't fall out they can become loose and that is telegraphed into the steering feel.

If you had a Cam Gear box, and you switched to a Gemmer box, and the steering got lighter, that indicates that the problem of friction was in the Cam Gear box, which is my original point. If the box has to handle steering force, it tightens up, which was why recirculating ball boxes were invented. Most of my driving is in the canyons, with lots of tight corners, and plenty of steering effort demanded as the box just tightens up. Doesn't matter how I adjust it, loose or tighter. The real difference is in the play and friction, , which never really goes away. Any l lighter feel that you might get from your Gemmer may have to do with the lift at the front of the Morgan. They don't cal those things "wings" for nothing. At 100 mph, probably more than 200 lbs are lifted off the front end.

When the weight is off the wheels, during the adjustment (box disconnected from the steering linkage), the box is free and without play. However, in practice, connected to the links, it has play, and doesn't transmit much information other than friction when driving, much as other cars I have driven with this sort of worm and peg setup.

I have checked all the rod ends, and none are out of spec for play. However, if you take the allowable play in all of the rod ends, that might add up to something.
Lots of rod ends... The car tracks straight, and driving it is not a problem, but the feel is definitely sub standard. It probably needs to have a new peg ( or rotate the peg that is in place), or be completely rebuilt, but the real problem is the design of the box itself. Just because it was used on other cars doesn't mean that it was especially good. It was all that was available at that time. Morgan knew that the box was sub standard, and finally replaced it, probably because it was going out of production... . I would rather just install the Gemmer (after all, that's what Morgan did), and have better feedback and feel. If the steering is light, that's OK with me. I like feeling what the front wheels are doing, and don't mind a quick steering ratio. I also have a set of bearings for the uprights to remove even more friction.

I have adjusted the system a few times, trying to find a sweet spot. Usually, i can make it a little better, but in the end, it's just another worm and peg. Lots of friction when turning the wheels.

When I do the camber plates, I am going to replace all of the rod ends to tighten up all the linkages. That might help. The box is smooth and has minimalt play, but adjustment just increases friction, and seems to have little effect on the amount of play. Probably time for a new peg, maybe a worm as well.
Really time for a new Gemmer 'box.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021-12-30 08:41 PM by SJM1.

I have a Cam Gear box and never switched to a Gemmer but driven several Gemmer equipped cars and found them not to my liking.

I have driven Gemmer equipped Morgans and have found them to be far superior, in that the friction and play in the steering gear is greatly reduced, if not gone entirely. Not exactly rack and pinion, but then my 30 yer old Mercedes has a recirculating ball box and steers quite nicely. Recirculating ball steering boxes are usually quite good when properly set up. While I like rack and pinion, a properly adjusted Gemmer is just fine with me. Most drivers of both will agree.

I could rebuild the Cam Gear unit, but I would have to take it out of the car, then put it back, and even when I was finished, it would still be a worm and peg, with built in play and friction under load (a problem with the design since it was invented over a century ago). Since I am not a manufacturer with a bunch of them on the shelf to install in production cars, I can update my Morgan, just as Morgan did a couple of years after my car was built. Why not? The only thing that is stopping me now is the price, and that is a temporary problem. I suspect that I will have the Gemmer in the car sometime mid year. I also suspect that it will enhance the Morgan's value.

But, again, if the steering lightens with speed or the car becomes twitchy, that is more a function of the alignment (or aerodynamics) than the steering box (the box itself has no "servo effect" and can't reduce effort other than to reduce the friction in the box itself, along with excessive play). I have corrected many Westfield 11s where the builder has not properly aligned the very light car, giving it the same lighter steering and unstable feel at speed. Since your car doesn't have this particular problem, and assuming your steering has crisp caster return (one thing that mine does fairly well), then it is likely properly aligned. Installing the Gemmer would only make it more precise, and reduce effort in corners. Most of my driving involves corners...

Jan, when I restored my Plus 8 from a basket case, I found the Lucas alternator and separate regulator were not working and were not inexpensive. I installed the typical GM Camarro alternator that costs about $40 buck from the auto parts store and it has been fine for almost 30 years..........

When I took delivery of my +8, it had a new wiring harness, but I was told that there were problems with circuits that didn't work, and problems with the charging system. The hew harness was poorly installed, and only the headlights worked. I re-installed the harness, and got all the circuits working, along with the charging system, including the voltage control module and (eventually) the warning light relay (which caused a lot of false warnings of low volts). I stuck with the Lucas electrics, mainly because everything that I tested worked properly, 'cept for the warning light relay. Once that was replaced, everything was sweetness and light (literally).
Once I learned about some of the unusual occurrences (pinning of the ammeter right after start up being semi alarming) that were normal for the system, I have found that it is reliable, and that it works. BTW, the ammeter returns to normal reading after precisely the specified time that Lucas lists in their testing protocol for their voltage control.
The battery holds a charge without having to be on Battery Tender life support.
The Lucas alternator can be easily rebuilt, and the cost is not a factor (relatively cheap). There is enough electrical power available for my +8 (not even a radio), to keep it running fine. The Morgan's electrics have not been a reliability problem at all, and I don't anticipate any changes. I have a duplicate TR module on the shelf, and the alternator has been stable. If I need to rebuild it, I have a source for the parts or a rebuild should I not feel like doing it myself.

What I am missing is the alternator belt guard that attaches to the alternator and goes over the top of the alternator pulley. I'd like to have one of those. If anyone has one, let me know.